ObservationPosted by Pauline on 1/22/04 at 11:12 (142635)
I don't know Dr. Kiper, nor do I wear or invest in his orthotics, however, it appears to this reader that every time his product gets mention or he posts, he's jumped on not by the public but by his own colleagues.
Since the very first time a poster mentioned they had success with Dr. Kipers orthotics others have knocked his success in helping patients.
Dr. Z has told us over and over helping patients is all he wants to do. Why should we believe any differently about Dr. Kiper. Some here apparently wear and swear by his soft orthotics. If it works for some and there is a money back guarantee why shouldn't people who are looking for help contact this man? No one here has proven him to be a quack.
He's licensed to practice Podiatry and as far as I'm concerned unless he is breaking some kind of law or injuring people he isn't any different than any of the other medical personnel posting here. Offering his service and treatment in the form of orthotics to help patients is no different than Dr. Z or Dr. Ed offering ESWT to help patients. Neither is guaranted to work, but one does offer a money back guarantee if your not helped by the treatment provided.
Scott mentions Dr. Kipers product on his 'For Sale Page' and I think if he had any reservation about Dr. Kiper or his product it would be removed.
Until proven quackery Dr. Kiper and his product gets respect from this poster. With a money back guarantee, I think people should try his product or any product that offers a money back guarantee that might offer them relief.
Look how much money P.F. sufferers have thrown away on other treatments that didn't work and never got a penny back including ESWT, surgery, RX orthotics, and OTC orthotics.
How do you prove to us your colleague Dr. Kiper is any less qualified than yourself's when it comes to helping people with P.F. pain. To me he's simply another Podiatrist offering to help people with a product he feels works. If it doesn't you get your money back.
I've not contacted Dr. Kiper but after seeing him questioned so much by our professionals am more interested in his product. Heck, it appears I have nothing to lose.
Re: ObservationJulie on 1/22/04 at 16:13 (142657)
Pauline, I am glad that you made this post. I have made the same observation, and have not been happy about it. It has been clear from all of Dr Kiper's posts that he is a serious helping professional. And we know that people here, notably Carmen, have been greatly helped by his SDOs.
If you try them, I'm sure you'll let us know how you fare with them.
Thanks again, Pauline - it needed saying.
Re: ObservationLarry T on 1/22/04 at 16:31 (142660)
Nobody was attacking Dr K from a business standpoint. My questions were directed to some of his assumptions and theories. Every type of insert will help some and not others. I was just making a valid point to some specifics, that needed saying also. Im sorry you were not happy about it.
Re: ObservationDr. Zuckerman on 1/22/04 at 20:14 (142675)
I have always had an open mind, but I would like to have just the only question I asked answered. I only asked one simple question that was asked for the sake of maybe learning something new but I received an answer that was a question. All I wanted to know was why Dr. Kiper felt that everyone in the world was an overpronator. I am very surprised Pauline that you feel that all of the professional on this board are questioning Dr. Kiper. All I did was ask a question because there was a statement that Dr. Kiper made that I had never heard before. I am surprised you didn't pick it up when reading all of these posting
Re: ObservationDr. Zuckerman on 1/22/04 at 20:20 (142676)
Larry T are you a doctor?? Pauline is making the assumption that professional were attacking Dr. K. I asked one question .
Re: ObservationRichard, C.Ped on 1/23/04 at 08:17 (142691)
I don't know if I am included in this, but as far as I know, I have never given an opinion about his product. I do have my opinions, but they will never be shared here.
All I did was answer someones question about how to have their impression taken...then all of a sudden, it was attacked as a grandiose statement. I think we should all have our opinions about they way something should be done, but we should not attack each other. We need to give pros and cons and leave it up to who asked the question as to what they need to do.
I am not a doctor, but I am not an idiot either.
Re: ObservationLarry T on 1/23/04 at 08:33 (142695)
Work in a P.T. clinic
Re: Richard...Suzanne D. on 1/23/04 at 12:30 (142726)
Don't be upset, Richard. You are very much appreciated here for how you help suffering people by answering their questions and giving your expertise. So are all others who do the same, including Dr. Kiper and Dr. Z, as well as others. (You also are funny sometimes, and that is a nice relief from the serious!) :)
There will always be people who want to stir things up on the message boards, for whatever reason. Since we really don't know who is behind typed messages or why they are writing as they do, I guess we have to just let it go and spend time with what seems to be real and healthy. (I know that's easier said than done at times. Once when all teachers were written off as lazy and whining about money, I got really upset!)
Just like children and dogs seem to sense who is kind and trustworthy, I think when all is said and done, most people reading here figure out after awhile who is genuinely helpful and honest.
That's my opinion, anyway. Keep up the good work!
Re: Richard...Richard, C.Ped on 1/23/04 at 13:43 (142732)
Thanx Suzanne. I was in a pretty bad mood that day from lack of sleep (new baby). I am usually a silly nut..but I just happened to take it personally that day.
Re: RichardJulie on 1/23/04 at 14:18 (142733)
Richard, I'm sorry you were upset and especially if I had a part in it. For the record, in agreeing with Pauline's comment, I did not have you in mind. Specifically, I was uncomfortable with Larry T's somewhat confrontational approach to Dr Kiper. I assumed him, from the comments he had made, to be a professional.
Generally, I do think there tends to be a suspicious (I mean a slightly more than healthily sceptical) attitude here about treatment modalities that are not down-the-line classic. (Not so much the complementary things - acupuncture, chiropractic, etc - but those, like Dr K's orthotics, that come within the realm of podiatry.
Re: RichardLarry T on 1/23/04 at 16:08 (142744)
I cant speak for Richard but the comment Dr K made about his 'grandiose' claim was what cheesed him off. I asked a question and we exchanged ideas, and that is ok. Were you uncomfortable with Dr K's 'grandiose' comment to Richard, or was it just me that made you uncomfortable?
My question was not skeptical just an attempt to understand some of his points. Maybe you shouldnt read so much into things. You may also want to be more even handed when you complain about posters
Re: RichardRichard, C.Ped on 1/23/04 at 16:24 (142745)
Oh you did not upset me at all Julie. You are one of the many cool ones on this board. As Larry stated, it was the 'grandiose' that set me off. That day was just a bad one in general. My water heater was not working, and I had to dump water on my head at the sink to wash my hair...haha. Turns out it was just a stupid loose wire. hahahaha
Re: RichardJulie on 1/23/04 at 16:36 (142746)
Thanks, Richard. I am relieved! And I'm sorry you had a bad day. But you've got clean hair now. Your story reminded me of my husband's tales of makeshift showers while hitchhiking in the Australian bush in the late 40s. You filled a bag with water, let it warm up in the sun, and then stood under it. At least the water was warm, though.
Re: ObservationDr. Zuckerman on 1/23/04 at 19:46 (142760)
Whether they work or not is not the question. It is the information about tradional biomechanics that bother Dr. Z . There are statements that contradict and in fact are just false. If someone is going to use tradional biomechanical terms and then say that their product is out of the box then stop using biomechanical definition incorrectly. Explain the function of SDO without using biomechanical terms that would make more sense to Dr. Z
Re: ObservationLarry T on 1/23/04 at 20:14 (142761)
Dr Z, thank you for pointing that out. It made sense and was concise.
Re: ObservationDr. Zuckerman on 1/23/04 at 20:27 (142763)
I worked this. I though it wasn't concise enough. The last couple of long posts hide the facts.
Re: Pauline's observationEd Davis, DPM on 1/23/04 at 21:52 (142767)
I have to agree with Dr. Z that the dlimena we have is Dr. Kiper's challenge to traditional, conventional biomechanics. He may have a product that works for a percentage of the population but feel that its effect can still be explained by our current body of scientific knowledge.
Here is a suggestion: we have a specific category/board for 'alternative treatments' on the f**tchat.com board. So there is a specific place for things like SDO's, ART and various treatments that go against mainstream
thinking to be placed. Perhaps that is something that Scott could consider here?
Re: Richard...Carole C in NOLA on 1/24/04 at 14:04 (142785)
Richard, I read what is posted by various professionals on the message board, and then make up my own mind about the poster based on the information he or she has provided, and how much sense it makes (or doesn't).
It's sort of like politics in that way; I read each candidate's platform, and try to make up my mind based on that.
Right now, in my opinion you are Top Gun when it comes to good, practical advice on shoes and orthotics. You have a great track record here on the message board over the years. You haven't tried to sell us anything and I don't see any possible self-interest in your posts. They seem to be genuinely a gift from you to us. You are mind-bogglingly patient. Another thing that I appreciate is that you also post on things you know about, and leave the rest alone, and I find that particularly admirable.
There are probably those out there who disagree with me in my opinion of you, just as there are people who disagree with me on politics. But I just wanted you to know that when someone is insulting to you rather than politely and respectfully differing, he or she has lowered my opinion of them, while my opinion of you remains unchanged.
Suzanne is right about how there will always be some people who want to stir up a message board! I wish they would stir a pot full of gumbo instead. LOL
Re: Richard...Kathy G on 1/26/04 at 09:22 (142861)
One of the nicest things about you is your obvious desire to help people. You don't push your ideas or methods as being the right ones; you never degrade anyone else's ideas and you aren't doing this for any financial gain. You give your educated opinion and let us draw our own conclusions.
You are one of the people on these Boards whom I admire and whose opinion I greatly value. You don't appear to have a selfish bone in your body.
And as an added bonus, you are one funny guy!:))
Re: Richard...John K on 1/26/04 at 16:33 (142881)
Possible reason for attacks is the intense frustration many feel with treating PF and with claims made for cures. I have heard so many cures over the years and have spent so much money and I still hurt. I have four pairs of orthotics.
Re: Richard...Carole C in NOLA on 1/26/04 at 17:39 (142889)
That's true. I am lucky that I am very nearly done with PF, now. My orthotics work and life is good. I hope your feet feel better soon, John K.
Re: Richard...Larry T on 1/27/04 at 07:22 (142929)
Sory to hear that John K, but I dont see where anyone 'attacked' anyone here. Can you or someone else explain?
Re: Richard...Pauline on 1/27/04 at 07:27 (142930)
I have three pairs that probably match yours. Are all of yours hard? Did anyone offer you anything different? I kept having mine made because I thought the next doctor would probably give me something different and it would work, instead I ended up with same old, same old, simply under different brand names and top covers.
Instead of collecting dust in our closet it would be nice to have a collection spot for slightly used orthotics for people that might be able to use them. Like eye glasses that are recycled.
Re: Richard...John K on 1/28/04 at 07:19 (143024)
I was just commenting on what I read. People get frustrated with PF and wonder cures.
Re: Richard...John K on 1/28/04 at 07:20 (143025)
I tried soft but I need lots of support. Hard worked for me for years but as I got older they stopped working.
Re: Richard...Richard, C.Ped on 1/28/04 at 09:01 (143028)
Thanx for the kind comments guys! Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I was iced in since Sunday, and just returned to the office today. It is much appreciated!
Re: Richard...Pauline on 1/28/04 at 12:20 (143055)
Wonder if it has to do with the fat pads on the bottom of our feet getting thinner as people age.
Re: Richard...Paul S on 1/31/04 at 10:58 (143315)
Judging by the way the rest of my body has changed as I have aged I would be surprised if the pads on my feet had gotten thinner.
Cheers - Paul S
Re: Richard...Paul S on 1/31/04 at 11:49 (143320)
The best orthotics I have were made at Mcmahan' shoe store here in Charlotte NC. They consist of 5 different materials of varying degrees of
softness to hardness. The softest at the top and the hardest at the bottom. They are full length and very comfortable. I have never seen anything like these described in this site. They are custom made from casts made from a foam mold taken while seated with your foot being gently pressed into the foam. I also have two hard pairs, one 3'4 length, and one full. The full in covered in leather and padded somewhat but is still not as comfortable as the ones from the shoe store. Both hard ones were from PD's. Does anyone else out there have anything like these?
Cheers- Paul S