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To Julie, to Marie, to Any and All:

Posted by Dorothy on 3/07/04 at 18:12 (146386)

Julie - I have not yet read the post you refer to in this post to Marie because I haven't gotten that far into the messages yet. However, the post that this reply goes to warrants a response from me now, even before reading your apology.

You said - 'Dorothy's final words hurt me more than I realised when I first saw her post to Marie a few hours ago, and I now really have to say that I don't 'pretend'. I am not especially goodhearted. I can be judgemental, and irritable, and sometimes cutting in my efforts to be clear. But I think I have given some useful help here over the years. Make up your own minds. '

If you were to ever search for posts from my name and read anything pertaining to you, overwhelmingly you would read that I have said you give useful advice. It is I who have used that word quite often in reference to what you do here. I have also complimented you on the quality of your writing. You were rude to me and I commented on it here, directly to you. Do I think this makes me saintly or better to anyone? No. As Pala points out, I am among those who are not perfect. Believe me, I know that. As to the status of your heart's motivations, only you can speak to that; I don't know that. What in my post makes you think I was speaking about you? To learn that you were speaking unkindly about me behind my back doesn't make you a straightforward, up-front individual in my book, but I do not, and have never, disputed that you give very useful advice and help to people here.

So does Marie. She consistently posts very specific helpful information about what helped her with TTS and PF and she has done it with regularity. Yet I recall that you identified your friend as the board's TTS expert, in a rather harsh rejoinder to me (speaking of an over the top reaction to something!) and never even mentioned Marie - when, in fact, it is Marie who consistently responds on that subject and your friend rarely does – although, in fairness, maybe she used to more often; I was referring to the past approximate two years. Yes, I understand, your friend is very busy and has done much good here; I do not dispute that at all. But the fact is, lots of people here are very busy, as is Marie, and they don't visit primarily to say how busy they are - that was the gist of my comment at the time. Simply because I do not post here about personal matters, my schedule, my work, my family, etc. does not mean they are minor factors in my life! I know that Marie will say/would say there is no contest on this topic, your friend/marie/TTS, and that all who can shed light on these problems are helpful and that is accurate; but, although I did not say so at the time because of your already expressed displeasure with my post, I thought that omission of credit to her as well on TTS was unfortunate, even if not intentionally rude. I was not criticising your friend; I was questioning the value of posting about why one doesn't have time to post and how busy one is and what one's schedule and demands are. Still seems reasonable to me, but ok, I'm off it now. It's a petty point and is much less important than that your friend posts at all and is helpful and friendly and derives support herself here. It was not my intention to hurt your friend at all and I was and am very regretful if I did; I did not think of it on personal terms, but on general terms. You, and she, felt it personally - I understand that fully; I should have been more circumspect. I have not always been courteous to Marie; she has always been courteous to me. I learn from that and give her credit for things like that. If 'waspish' was not directed at me, it probably should have been - it's probably a good term to use. When I feel attacked, I sting in response. It's not a pretty trait. I feel antipathy from all sides here, and recently, I have learned, from you as well.

It is astonishing to me that you are, here - today, offering olive branches of a sort to Ed Davis and, not so obliquely, chastising and expressing your displeasure with me. How extremely odd. Maybe he has changed, as you speculate. When would this change have occurred? This morning? An hour ago? Last night? Around noon? Maybe you're just striking a truce with him. I don't want bargains, alliances, little cliques, secret mailings, codes, gossip, innuendo, obscenity, attacks, the enemy of my friend is my enemy, the friend of my friend is my friend, any of it!!! You are helpful here in your way. I was helpful here in my way, albeit more limited and inane. Dr. Ed is helpful here in his way. Marie is helpful here in her way - and so on. But that is not the entire story. And - for me - the crowning point is that I have borne the brunt of the garbage, filth and distortion. Not oblique, not indirect, not veiled; quite the contrary. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are reacting out of unintended hurt when you make the inference that I was referring to you (goodhearted/pretense) and then, on that erroneous premise, now exhort people to come to your defense against my (inferred by you) meaning. I wasn't referring to you in that comment. Maybe I should have made a list of names (short list of chameleons) who that referred to, but then identities can't be trusted here in some cases, so who would I list and how would I refer to them? It was not you, although I understand why you would think it was. You posted for a time under an alias and then later acknowledged it and apologized for that. Now it appears that even if you post under your name, you correspond behind the scenes about others, or about me anyway. I'm not warmed by that knowledge, but I'll get over it. I hope you weren't being malicious. That wouldn't be nice, would it?

Suddenly, visiting a place ostensibly about foot problems and people who are hurting and just engaging with each other in various ways seems more like dropping in on the Medici court and dwelling in Byzantine politics!

To be clear: I think your writing here is clear and effective. I think your advice is clear and makes good sense. I think you offer useful help to people here. I think your participation here is consistent and reliable and oriented to being informative and constructive. You are very responsive to people whom you can help. I think your (previous) take on Dr. Ed and his machinations were on target. I don't think he has changed. I don't know what is going on here, but it has a bad smell. (Maybe all the sad feet?? That's a joke. Meant as a joke, nothing more.)
Ok, I have now read your apology and I appreciate your explanations of past reactions to things I have written. You were probably right to come to Marie's defense back then because I did react strongly to her (yes, I remember the incident) lumping all women into one attitude that I and my women-friends take issue with. I was new, I was jumping in and I didn't know john h or marie in their posting personalities. Just as you or Dr. Z (or I) would want to jump in and squelch any clearly anti-semitic comments, so too have I always reacted strongly to comments that I feel are anti-women. ( I was the only one to vehemently object to the repulsive comments Peter R made about an African woman – and other women over time). I do not think Marie is anti-women/woman at all; Marie has her own style of writing about things as does everyone here - so I should have held my tongue at the time, a tongue which can be sharp. Your apology is accepted and your explanations seem clear to me.

I do think that many things need to be discussed among the posters who have a history here and who continue to participate here regarding the message board's tendency to chaos and the sources of that repeated attraction to chaos. I have been assessing the state of my own being over these past few days and I notice that I have gone from a state of tension and sadness and fury and internal disharmony (which carries over to my family – not a good thing!) to one of relative calm and peace over the past 24 hours.Things happen at this site that provoke the former so I am going to avoid it. (yes, I know…I keep saying that and keep posting…but I am wrapping up and winding down, honest!) Most people who know me think I am a real nice person and they like me a lot – so why have I stood still for the garbage here? Don't know. I guess it's because I have a strong drive to understand things and to make them right. It's not working here. Not going to do it anymore. Two protracted episodes of this sort are all it takes for me to 'get it.' So - I offer my hand to you and to marie in peace, even though we would probably keep our gloves on while shaking hands! We could just touch our (boxing) gloves to the others'gloves as boxers do, a gesture of respect, I guess. (Actually, I hate boxing, but the ritualized gesture will suffice!)
Namaste, Julie~

Re: To Julie, to Marie, to Any and All:

marie on 3/07/04 at 20:57 (146397)

This was written by the Dorothy I know and have come to enjoy seeing here. I have no idea what has actually occurered on the other boards at this site except for the snipet I read on the ESWT board. So most of what you wrote I have no idea about. It seems to me that we all have our imperfections....our weaknesses. I have known you to be an honest person...although a little excitable at times. :) Believe me I appreciate your opinions because you don't seem to take sides here.

I met Ed on the boards almost a year ago. He has his flaws...and when I first saw some of his posts I thought yikes who is this doctor. He and I have had many a good debate. Most have been about politics but much of it has been about his posting style. I didn't appreciate that some folks felt unwanted here because of posts made by him and some others as well. I challenged them all on this and little by little they really became talented and considerate posters. Believe me Ed still has the same conservative views he has always had. But his posting style has changed.

I didn't leave the board I stayed. And I continued to challenge and encourage people to adopt better posting styles. When I was laid off from my job last year I was so down. I heard from alot of folks here...many suppostive ones...but the ones I cherished most were the ones made by Ed and some of the others that I'd been battling with for so long. That's when I knew I had to quit looking for the worst in folks. I changed. Ed has never lied to me...even when it's to his advantage to do so.

Am I unflawed?.....Heck no. I fall to temptations all the time...yesterday was a good example of that. I thought you needed a cold bucket of water in your face to get you to come around. Fortunately for you, I can't do that through a computer. I never read past the first 7-8 sentences of the post you made to me. So believe you didn't hurt me at all.

If I had participated in running Dr. Ed off the board last fall....I would have been the biggest hypocrite of all time. I have never appreciated it when folks gang up on others here and I have made that clear from the start. What kind of person would I be if I stood up for one person and not another? I only have to live in the body of one person 'me'.....and i don't want to live with someone who thinks it's ok to bait or taunt people just to run them off. I have read many good books in my time but the Bible has been the most influential to me. I'm not a religous geek or anything but I do believe the greatest challenge He has put before us is tolerance of others.

best wishes marie

Re: oops

marie on 3/07/04 at 21:00 (146400)

that should read.... Am I flawed?.....Heck yes! I sware that darned Neurontin makes me goof up all the time. Well sometimes ya just have to laugh at yourself.

Re: To Julie, to Marie, to Any and All:

Julie on 3/08/04 at 01:05 (146408)

Thank you,Dorothy - I'm glad you accept my apology.

Re: oops

marie on 3/08/04 at 15:53 (146467)

Oh my gosh...I just glanced at my post and I have all kinds of typos and misspelled words....urrrrgh! I don't think I'd win a writing contest.:D