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Delaying the inevitable?

Posted by LeeB on 7/09/04 at 11:52 (154941)

Hello,

I'm a 48 y.o. male in the mile-high city (Denver) who has (I think) chronic 'atypical' PF. By atypical I mean that I don't experience the early morning pain, in fact, my feet usually feel normal/pain-free in the morning. But, after standing on them for more than about 5 minutes, the pain creeps in and becomes intolerable after about twenty minutes. Standing in place, especially on a hard tile or concrete surface, is a very scary thing these days. Walking isn't nearly as bad (can go about 15 minutes without pain), but eventually the same extreme discomfort creeps in. This has been going on for 3-4 years.

Prior to that, for another 3-4 years, basically the same symptoms occured, only I was able to stand for 15-20 min before the pain crept in. I first experienced PF almost ten years ago (!)... it's been quite bad for 8+ years. My lifestyle has really degraded from it. I've suffered from depression over the years and had a bad, defeatist attitude around the PF for a long time. I've finally been treated successfully for the depression and have got it together and tried to be aggressive about treating the PF and restoring some degree (hopefully, a large degree) of quality to my lifestyle.

About 8 months ago I started to agressively 'rest' my feet - the longest I'm usually on them is a weekly trip to the grocery store (which I dread, as my feet always hurt like heck afterwards. Icing afterwards seems to help somewhat with this). I have a chair with wheels to roll around the kitchen to prepare meals, etc. Saw no improvement from the 'rest'. I then began stretching religiously 3x/day about 6 weeks ago. Also recently spent $445 on custom orthotics and am trying to break them in. I saw an MD 6 years ago who prescribed massive NSAIDS - took them for 6 weeks with absolutely no help. Saw a podiatrist a couple of months ago who ordered an MRI... it came back negative for PF but (evidently) indicated I had some bursitis (??) in one ankle and a mild sprain in another (??). The pod wanted to do ESWT as my insurance will cover it, in fact will cover multiple treatments. However, the pod office was very unprofessional in regards to prepartion/scheduling of the ESWT to the point that I became convinced he and his staff have little experience with it... basically lost faith.

My question is: based on what I've read about Dr. Z's triad approach, am I wasting time trying the conservative approaches, given that I've had this for so long (e.g. currently probably have low tissue quality)? Am I delaying the inevitable, namely, ESWT and/or surgery? I know I'll need to use stretching and probably orthotics life-long, but how long should I try them before getting ESWT? Or should I cut my losses and just go for the ESWT?

I'M SORRY for the long post (it's been very cathartic, BTW)... I really appreciate and am thankful for these boards and all I've learned from you folks. Thank you very much in advance for any advice/insight/thoughts you'd care to share. I hope to give back to the boards someday with a success story of treating PF.

Best,
Lee

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

John from MN on 7/09/04 at 12:00 (154943)

Do not bother with ESWT or release surgery, they are a waste of time and money. Insurance agencies are starting to not cover them anymore because of the high failure rate. Read my prior post about TFM.

Even if you had ESWT your PF will not go away until all the scar tissue in the fascia is healed. good luck Lee

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Dr. Z on 7/09/04 at 12:05 (154946)

John From MN,

Where are you getting your information ???? ESWT works by repairing the fascia and stimulating the body to remove and lay down new tissue. Is TFM covered by insurance?

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Pauline on 7/09/04 at 12:59 (154950)

I don't know John. You are starting to speak with great authority, like the captain on the ship. Trouble is you've not been hired yet and that could be your downfall.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

John from MN on 7/09/04 at 13:05 (154952)

Dr. Z, we all appreciate your time and posts on this site, my comments come from my own experience as a patent suffering from PF for 5 years and meeting with over 15 doctors.

I had ESWT twice on either foot and it did not work. I know several people who had ESWT and it did not work. TFM worked for many others I know. You would be amazed at how great of condition my fascias are in.

My fascia felt the same before and after ESWT surgery. Rough, like a washboard. Now, after 30 treatments with TFM they feel smooth and pliable and I am running 5 mils a day. I am not a doctor but I can tell you the drastic difference between the two procedures from a patient's point of view.

TFM is covered by most insurance. The problem is most doctors and therapists have not spent enough time developing the proper technique. I have been to other doctors and their techniques with TFM and they administer it wrong.

Dr. Sandell won't come out publicly because he is very humble person, but he has fixed hundreds of patents with TFM. I just wish the mainstream doctors had his knowledge. He has a 99% success rate. The only patients he said might have problems are older patients in their late 70's and ones that have had too much surgery.

When people ask how to get cured of PF I instantly tell them you must break apart the all the scar tissue on the bottom of their foot. Once you have scar tissue it has to get fixed. Night Splints will not fix the scar tissue. They may stretch your calf muscles but they will not affect the scared fascia. Casting your foot will only weaken your legs muscles and not break up scar tissue.

Injections do not heal scar tissue neither does light therapy. You have to get into the tissue and physically break up the scars and let it heal naturally. ESWT may break it apart slightly but it does not realign the tissue properly.

If insurance does not cover TFM your out of pocket expense would be $3-$4 k at most, and that's an extreme patent like myself. Fortunately for me insurance covered most of my costs.

I know I might be saying some bold statements about standard treatments, but after my experience I have no problem saying it. Its hard to hear from a lot of people because its so contrary to what everyone believes and has been taught.

I wish you the very best and I still respect your opinions.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

John from MN on 7/09/04 at 13:07 (154953)

I do not want to be hired just point people in the right direction. If you talked to Place I think she would tell you the same thing.

Why should people have to go through all the same pain I did if they can find out the solution much faster.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Pauline on 7/09/04 at 13:37 (154956)

John,
I don't disagree with you. Heck if my P.F. comes back I'm flying to see Dr. Sandell.

You know I never made a note of his location or phone number. Can you post that information again? It's something I'd like to file.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

John from MN on 7/09/04 at 13:44 (154958)

I did not know you were healed from PF, thats awesome. Make sure to stretch 3 times a week so it does not come back.

Here is the information on Dr. Sandell

Spine and Sports Institute
Dr. Josh Sandell
7372 Kirkwood Ct.
Maple Grove, MN 55369
763.315.0466

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

john h on 7/09/04 at 14:10 (154960)

Pauline if you fly to see Dr. Sandell I will be totally and unconditionally convinced he is the real deal and will be on the next flight north.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

john h on 7/09/04 at 14:36 (154967)

John from Mn you are clearly a walking testimonal for Dr. Sandell. Since a reported 6 million people a year come down with PF and 10% of those become chronic I am left to wonder why a procedure that is 99% effective in curing PF is not all over the world. Why has this not appeared in some scientific journals or papers presented to backup a 99% cure rate. I think one could become a multi millionaire if he/she comes up with a 99% cure rate for PF. I remember once offering an ESWT clinc $10,000 if they would cure me vs no charge if they could not. I have no doubt you are cured but I remain a skeptic at heart when anyone offers up a 99% cure rate for PF. This disease has been around since man has walked on two feet and Doctors all over the world hold seminars on the disease. Some institution is going to have to do a controlled study and provide conclusive evidence for me to believe a 99% cure rate. If Dr. Sandell was in Little Rock I would stand in line to try his procedure but I need more evidence than several people reporting a cure for me to fly off to MN for several weeks. The old addage that if it seems to good to be true then it probably is not sticks with me. I am very happy for you and sincerely hope Place and others who are trying this procedure have your success. Along the way on this board I have seen to many things that were billed as procedures that would cure PF. I remember when endoscopic surgery for PF came along. It was billed as a no sweat procedure that would have you walking out of the Doctors office and back to running promptly. One Doctor wanted to do both of my feet at once and said I would be running 10K's in a month. Fortunately I found this board before I let him do his thing. ESWT was over hyped in the begining. I still think it is a viable procedure but it is not the cure all we all thought it would be. When I find something that helps me I post it on the board because it might help someone else. Then again it might make them worse so in the end we as patients must make a choice. The good thing about Dr. Sandell is there is no knife involved and at the worst you will be no worse and maybe he can cure you but I just am not ready to accept a 99% cure rate for any known procedure for PF. This would be a major medical break through. I know you fully believe in Dr. Sandell and your post is a welcome post for the board because it provides hope and we all need that. From what I am reading we are only dealing with a hand full of people on this board who are working with the Doctor. I will look forward to seeing how we all view this 6 months from now. Dr. Z and Dr. Ed can throw away their ESWT machines and go back to school if this turns out to be the final solution. In the mean time my feet hurt.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Pauline on 7/09/04 at 14:54 (154972)

John,
If my P.F. comes back, I'm there. Unfortunately we don't have friends, relatives or a home in MN so I'd have to hotel it for several months.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Pauline on 7/09/04 at 14:57 (154974)

John,
You know they'd never throw their machines away. They are banking on insurance coverage. BTW was it Dr. Sandell that said he had a 99% cure rate or John from MN?

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

john h on 7/09/04 at 14:59 (154975)

I am not big on PF release surgery but I suspect that statistics would show more people being cured by PF surgery than any other procedure. I am talking about the 10% of chronic PF patients not the 90% who are cured with the standard PF treatments. We read about the PF surgery failures on our board but never read about the thousands upon thousand of successful Pf surgeries. This is still a viable option but does have its risk.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

john h on 7/09/04 at 15:06 (154976)

Lee: I have had bilateral PF for nine years and understand your feelings. ESWT is worth a shot especially if your insurance will cover it. Which machine are you considering using as there are 3 FDA approved machines at my last count. I think your pain level and quality of your life will in the end dictate how far you are willing to go to treat the condition. I have seen post from people who were cured who had the disease over 10 years so you never know when lighting will strike. Keep on plugging away. I lived in Cherry Hills when I was at your former Air Force Base.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Marty from SLC on 7/09/04 at 15:25 (154980)

Who on this board had pf for 10 years are were cured???

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Place on 7/09/04 at 16:45 (154989)

I don't know about all that cure rate stuff, but I just walked for an hour with my dogs, no pain, today I have walked over 10,000 steps total and I feel great! I am firm believer in results. It only cost me a two week vacation to see results. Nothing has ever given me any results in the first two weeks (they always say give it a month or two, in fact nothing has ever given me any results) let alone increasing the functionality of my foot by 50%. I don't know if it will work for everyone but just like ortho's and birks, it is worth giving it a shot if one can afford it!

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

John from MN on 7/09/04 at 18:06 (155000)

Time is the best test for results. A proven method of treatment is best judge by how many patients are treated and stay in good health. Place had great results. I think it best to see how others are doing before you become a believer.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

LeeB on 7/09/04 at 19:15 (155010)

John,
Thank you for your comments and encouragement. The machine the original pod would have used is an Ossatron. There are several around the Denver metro area. I've assumed if I have it done it would be with the Ossatron (with a new pod...). Cherry Hills is nice! (home of John Elway)
Thanks to everyone else as well, this is a great site.
Lee

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

john h on 7/10/04 at 08:56 (155025)

Lee I do not know that anyone of the machines is better than the other. The Ossatron is the only one which is done in a hospial setting and you are sedated. It is also the most expensive and was the first one to be approved by the FDA in the U.S. Dr. Ed uses the Sonnocur which is a low power machine and used in the Dr's office. Cost varies but is the least expensive of all the treatments. You normally need3-5 treatments with this machine. Dr. Z used the other high power machine which is uaually 1 or more treatments. It is also done in the office with an ankle block, Cost on this procedure from $2-$3 thousand dollars. I have had 4 ESWT treatments but have not used the Ossatron due to cost. We had one guy who had 11 ESWT treatments on each foot in Canada with different machines. After many years of PF he reported last year he was 'cured'. If your insurance pays for the Ossatron and it was me I would be all over it. I travelled all the way from Little Rock to New Jersey and Dr. Z for my treatments. Read carefully about the three machines. I think the Doctor who performs the proedure to be very important as you must focus the very narrow beam into the correct spot or it is a waste of time. This is a personal decision so let your Doctor and you make the call. Besides living in Cherry Hills I lived in Cheyenne for three years which was really great. Cheyenne is the real west and being the largest city in Wyoming I think the population was only around 40,000 when I lived there. I lived on an old calvery base and lived in the former quarters of General Black Jack Pershing. A three story turn of the of the century home with spiral starircases. Probably around 6000 sf and I could barely furnish 4 rooms. I hope Denver still does not have all that terrible smog. As a pilot it was amazing to see the city from the clear air at about 5000 feet above the ground. It was so thick you cut through it. I will be interested to hear what and how you are doing.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

john h on 7/10/04 at 09:27 (155032)

I forget his name Marty but the guy from Canada who had 11 ESWT treatments reported he was cured after more than 10 years. Seems like I recall 1-2 more. Very few. I will say I am approaching 10 years and I am one heck of a lot better than when this first began or either I came to accept it. Not sure which to be honest. If I had not been ultra active all my life my condition might be accptable to many but I continue to be like a fish out of water. I want to do those things I once did and now cannot. I want to run in a 5-10K race and jog on the beach.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Pauline on 7/10/04 at 09:29 (155033)

John,
What did the cost of all those ESWT treatments cost? Probably far more than a trip to see Dr. Sandell.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

john h on 7/10/04 at 09:42 (155036)

Yes Pauline but what is a night out with Dr.Z,his wife and staff,Judy, Nancy N, Barbara and others worth. Can you put a price on that? My feet still hurt but my brain feels better..

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Kathy G on 7/10/04 at 10:08 (155038)

Lee,

I've had atypical PF for ten years. Actually, it started with a neuroma in one foot and progressed from there. Orthotics take care of the neuroma pain. That was atypical, too, so surgery wasn't an option my Pod wanted to consider, thankfully. The orthotics also help my PF.

I've been told that ESWT isn't as successful for people with atypical PF but as others here have said, it might be worth a shot.

I definitely think surgery would be a radical approach. From what I've read on these boards and a couple of local stories I've heard, few people with PF get any better from surgery.

I think bursitis in your foot is quite possible. My sister had it on the back of her heel several years ago. They treated it with Butazolitin, a drug that is no longer used for humans. I may have spelled it incorrectly but it was a horse tranquilizer and found to be dangerous for humans. She was in high school and quite obnoxious at the time. I was seven years younger and had a wonderful time giving her a hard time about taking horse medicine!

Your conservative approach seems to be smart as everyone has found the more we rest, the better we are. Have you read Scott's Heel Pain Book? Through trial and error, you need to find the regime that works best for you and his book is full of ideas. Also, try Julie's Yoga stretches. I'm doing one as I write!

It would seem that you need to find a Pod you can trust. I'm glad that your depression is under control. Chronic pain can lead to chronic depression and you were wise to recognize it and seek treatment. Now you need to find someone who can help you treat your PF.

Keep us posted and do join us on the Social Board to vent and share your feelings. When I was at my worst, that board helped me to feel that I wasn't the only person who felt like I did. You'll find people here to be very supportive as well as well informed. We have our own little club who shall not be 'defeeted'!

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

BLT on 7/10/04 at 23:35 (155084)

MN, your results may be good but the 99% is nonsense. I dont mean it is your figure but if you were told that you were jerked. PF is most often one or a combo of biomechanics/invironment/footwear/activity/trauma or so on. existence of spur, diet,enzymes,scaring, blah blah is a bunch of talk. There is not scar tissue to break up with some massage that is causing pain.\\Example many women will get pf after delivering a child. More wt, stress and hormonal softening of tissue. They also gain about 1 foot size due to load and stress. pf often follows

They didnt grow a spur or scar tissue. Massage of one type or another has been called everything from massage ot foot rub to art to any other $100 name but it is like chiropractic for the foot some people like it. Some people feel better and some people dont respond to a expensive foot rub

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Julie on 7/11/04 at 00:55 (155087)

My guess is that scar tissue was a significant factor in John from MN's PF, and he was helped by massage which broke it up. His enthusiasm for the treatment that helped him is understandable, and it's good that he is sharing his experience for the benefit of others.

The problem is that his experience has led him to believe that ALL PF involves scar tissue and therefore that massage is the certain cure for all cases PF. From what I know about the many contributing factors to PF, including those enumerated by BLT, I doubt that this is the case. People suffering from PF need an accurate diagnosis of the cause(s) of their particular condition, and a treatment plan that addresses that diagnosis.
.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

John from MN on 7/11/04 at 09:07 (155100)

Do you care to put money on that?

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

BLT on 7/11/04 at 14:27 (155113)

Could you please provide a link to any solid study that shows scar tissue on an mri before and scar tissue gone after this treatment. If it is for real and 99% the author should be proud to have it done

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

HilaryG on 7/11/04 at 14:44 (155114)

I think the 99& claim is irrelevant. What is important is that John from MN was helped and is sharing his source with the rest of us. We can do with the info as we wish.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Dorothy on 7/11/04 at 15:12 (155115)

I agree, Hilary G. In fact, I have been thinking about what seems to be a growing tendency here to be negative and critical about a product, a technique, a theory - whatever - when someone shares their story about something that HELPED them!

Re: Thanks Dorothy

John from MN on 7/11/04 at 16:23 (155121)

Thank you Dorothy, again my goal is to help 5 people. Then I am done with this board. It is then my hope that these 5 people will help 5 more people each. After my hundreds of hours of study on this issue of PF, it is my belief that I have found the 'magic bullet.' I have read through the same textbooks that med. students read and were very disappointed at the lack of information out about PF.

I find a lot of people negative and critical about treatment on this board, especially John h. Do to the fact that everyone on this board has been lied to by their doctors, therapist, pod, and have not seen any results time and time again, I really do not blame them for being critical. Every time somebody comes by and says they have the answer, its usually another disappointment. That is why I am letter Place, Goose, Bill, doing some of the talking for me.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Dorothy on 7/11/04 at 18:25 (155126)

John from MN - I hope you will stay with the board as I think you have done a service by offering hope by way of your own experience and that of those who are trying your recommendations. I love to feel hopeful and optimistic. I continue to try to think of ways that I could see your Dr. Sandell for the extended visits needed.
I think that John H speaks from a lot of important experience and he is often reminds readers that what he describes are HIS experiences and may not be theirs. He is practical and knowledgable, and I appreciate his point of view because I think he still has a pretty open mind and an optimistic spirit and an experimental nature, it seems to me. He, like you, shares what has worked for him and what hasn't and he has lots of varied experience. Hillary G. may have responded to you, and I agreed with her, because it seems to me that she had a similar experience wherein she repeatedly described her very positive experience with a procedure called ART. Likewise the poster who writes favorably about his experience with Dr. John Sarno's ideas; he has been openly mocked and I found that reaction to be very narrow-minded and rude. It seems that some readers want to 'rise up' whenever a poster simply reports on his/her positive experience and wants to share it with readers here, rather than being grateful and open-minded and curious, or, barring that, just quiet and let other readers decide for themselves. I think that those who 'rise up' may do so out of the very best intentions - wanting to offer a caution, a 'don't get your hopes up too high' kind of reminder - but what we all need to be reminded of over and over again is that, first, that caution is useful but also can burst bubbles of hope - and those bubbles of hope are also a good experience, maybe even contain some healing potential; and second, there are so many pathways to improved health that we should be careful about shutting down any of them - except for the obvious fraudulent, exploitative ones. Hope is very important and despair is a killer. You gave hope and steered us away from despair. So has Hillary G; so has Carole C; so has Suzanne and Marie - and several others. The marriage of careful and smart attitudes with optimistic and hopeful attitudes is a good marriage. I greatly appreciate the breath of fresh air you have brought here with your enthusiasm, your specific information, your earnest and kind optimism. I have only had one problem with it: Dr. Sandell does not work near me! I speculate that the posters who are the most cautionary are mostly trying to protect others from having hopes dashed and most do so out of caring and concern.
John of MN, what can you tell me about living in Minnesota? Seriously. My husband and I are thinking about making a change in the future and are considering Minnesota (Stillwater area, for example, although we haven't even visited there yet!). Any thoughts you can share? I know about winter - I lived in northern Michigan for years. We enjoy winter actually. I used to x-c ski, but you know....feet... Thanks again, John of MN.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Dorothy on 7/11/04 at 18:29 (155128)

This is a very interesting question.

Re: Thanks Again

John from MN on 7/11/04 at 20:36 (155137)

Dorothy

I appreciate your kind words, its people like you who I would like to help with my experience. I am a seasoned PF patent and have a lot of experience on getting better. I do not think anybody here has talked with as many processionals on the subject over the past 5 years as I have, except Dr. Z and the other doctors. I appreciate their participation in this board as well.

Some days I wonder WHY BOTHER, I am running again, 6 miles a day, and getting back to a normal life. I appreciate your kind words.

Minnesota is a low crime state. I am very conservative and this state is way too liberal for my blood. We pretty much have a recession proof economy. The summers are better here than any other state with all of the lakes we have. The winters are too cold. I snow ski and the hills do not compare to Colorado. The water skiing is awesome. I am planning on buying a water ski boat next summer because I am able to ski again, I can't wait.

By my house we have over 50 miles of X-country ski paths, that might interest you. Stillwater is a nice quit town on the banks of the St. Croix river, very nice place too live. The time to visit in the summer, 2 hours north is some of the best cabin lakes for relaxation. If you come and visit I would love to have dinner with you and your husband and of course I would introduce you to Dr. Sandell. Nice to hear from you.

John

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Pauline on 7/11/04 at 21:01 (155138)

Dorothy,
What John of MN is hearing is nothing new to this board or to anyone willing to step into this protected arena with a new idea to treat P.F.
patients.

I think it's entirely possible that Dr. Sandell can and does provide the end result that John and Place have experienced, why because I think the physical therapist that worked on me from South Africa probably did the same thing.

I have not found any other physical therapist as good as she was at treating P.F. and I suspect her experience with barefoot runners played a part in her success. At the same time I was treating with her, she was treating Nicole Bobeck the Olympic Ice Skater. Nicole had to keep training while undergoing treatment in order to competed at Nationals. She won that year and I remember seeing our P.T. in the stands with her mother and grandmother when the camera turned to them after Nicole's win. Our P.T. had gone with her to Nationals and continued to work on her there. So if Nicole and her coach took her to nationals she must have been doing something right. It was shortly after this she returned home to South Africa.

So I do think that Dr. Sandells treatment can and probably does work for many people. For everyone, I can't say, but to put him through the mill on this site isn't a fair assessment of his work. Remember he didn't come here looking for patients or advertising himself or his practice his patient told us about him.

Dr. Sandell I think was totally overwhelmed by all the excitement and sudden popularity. He responded I think with kindness and the dignity found in a professional.

Re: Thanks Again

Dorothy on 7/11/04 at 23:30 (155142)

Thank you so much, John of MN. How very nice of you. You have added to our interest in Minnesota with your description and information. Fifty miles of x-c paths would interest my husband - he can go all day long (he's on a Nordic Trac right now!) but it's probably not for me anymore.
I do like to walk and hike in the snow though, when all the body parts are working together. I hope you get that water ski boat next summer. We also love to water ski, but again something that may not be for me anymore. I will tow my husband and family around and around though.
Thank you, John of MN - and continued good health to you.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

DANNI on 7/12/04 at 09:39 (155153)

'I find a lot of people negative and critical about treatment on this board, especially John h. Do to the fact that everyone on this board has been lied to by their doctors, therapist, pod,'

Wow that is a rather strong and abrasive statement. Saying that they were 'lied' to. So are you saying there is no study?

Re: Thanks Dorothy

John MN on 7/12/04 at 10:08 (155157)

Not a strong statement at all. If all the doctors tell you they can make great improvements with your PF and they all fail, then something is not right. I had to see over 15 doctors until I found somebody who understood the problem.

If the doctors were to give me a money back guarentee then I would not have a problems with it. Instead their attitude is 'I will give it my best shot.' If my car mechanic had that attitute they would be out of business.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

john h on 7/12/04 at 10:38 (155161)

I do not recall ever having made a statement that patients have been 'lied to'! Please reference this statement. Your saying I am overly critical about treatments comes from having been on this board almost from its inception and seeing over and over again people with PF being advised that they can be cured with cure rates like 99%. I have had bilaterial PF for almost 10 years and have tried almost every conceivalbe treatment from PF surgery,tts surgery, 4 eswt treatments. massage treaments of various names, meds of every type, accupuncture and on and on. All treatments should be evaluated with a critical eye and my thoughts have always been in the final analysis it it the patient who will make the call. Patients should be made aware of what can go wrong, what has worked for some and what has not worked for some. What we do not need is group think where we all agree with every new treatment that comes along as the final solution to PF. It is just not going to happen that way. Many come to this board with absolutely no previous knowledge of PF. Some have been ready to have immediate surgery without a thought as to its consequences. Yes I can be critical but not in the sense I say a procedure will absolutely not work but in the sense of look before you leap. You are perhaps refering to my criticism of a reported 99% plus cure rate of Cross Friction Massage. Yes, I would want to see the medical studies backing this up and I would suggest before anyone invest thousands of dollars they ask the same question. Healthy criticism and critique is necessary to the advancement of medicine.and any new procedure must stand up to the critque of people like the FDA and the medical community. If you want to view some real criticism look at some of the criticism Dr.Z received on ESWT when he began this treatment some years ago.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

john h on 7/12/04 at 11:01 (155163)

Dorothy: Yes we must always have hope but we must caution that with not offering so much hope that when some procedure does not work one really goes into a deep funk. We need healthy informed hope. I think most of us on the board who have been here any length of time sort of look with great skepticism when you see 99% cure rates for PF. I think it is enough to say that a procedure worked for me and several others. I even try to be careful about advising others to try a procedure even though it may have helped me. I leave that to the Doctors. I think John from Mn brought forth some good information and if I was in Mn I would probably give it a go with Dr. Sandell. As it is I searched in my immediate area to look for someone who offered this procedure. I found some and am trying one but after visiting him for 8-9 visits I find he is really not a true believer. John is apparently a true believer for good reason, he appears to be cured. This does not translate into this being the cure for all of us. I have read all I can on the subject and it is not a new or innovative type massage. Dr. Sandell may just be able to do it better. ESWT was once almost the final answer we all looked for but I think now we have come to recoginze it helps some but not others. For those who have been cured they may never really know what cured them. They may surmise it was the last thing they were doing to treat their problem but in fact it could have simply been time or a number of things combined they were doing. Have hope (I do) and have optimisim but always be cautionly optimistic and you may not suffer a big let down. I have tried some way out things in my endeavor to improve my condition and will probably continue to do so.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

john h on 7/12/04 at 11:16 (155167)

I find that a rather strong statement John from MN that 'everyone' on this board has been lied to from their Doctors, Podiatrist,and Therapist and that you have discovered the 'Magic Bullet'. I do not think any of my many professionals lied to me. None, not one ever said they had the magic bullet or promised a cure. Anyone who would say this raises an immediate red flag to me and I start watching my wallet. I wish Place,Goose, and Bill good hunting and happy to see you are well. With millions of PF patients each year 4 people are a statistical insignificance. If one is going to travel to a distant Doctor and spend several thousand dollars I hope they will find the justification unless they are just plain rich.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

John from MN on 7/12/04 at 11:43 (155173)

Time will tell. TFM is much less of a cost than ESWT and you know if you are getting better within a few weeks of treatment. The risk/reward factor is very low.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Dorothy on 7/12/04 at 11:52 (155175)

John H - I am getting a little confused. This thread is apparently headed 'Thanks Dorothy' so maybe that is why these posts only seem to be directed at me, when they are actually just responses to others. Is that true?
You have two posts that I have seen so far under that heading. Are they both directed at me or just the one beginning 'Dorothy'?? I just like to know when something is a response to me or to someone else - otherwise I remain confused! Thanks.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

john h on 7/12/04 at 12:01 (155176)

I am probably confued Dorothy. I think I just looked at the top of the page-thread saw your name and directed it at you when it may have been posted by someone else.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

john h on 7/12/04 at 12:14 (155178)

John from Mn I much agree with that but if one needs several weeks of treatment the cost of airfare and living expenses drives up the cost considerably for someone from another city. That would seem its only drawback. ESWT with high energy is a one day deal so I could fly up to N.J. have a treatment and be back in Little Rock on the same day. At that time Dr. Z was giving a super low price wiht a free 2nd treatment. As I said before if I lived near Dr. Sandell I would without a doubt try the procedure. Although I have had 4 eswt treatments I have never tried the Ossatron. We have one in my town but the $5000 cost is not worth the gamble knowing what I know about my previous treatments with eswt. My eswt treatments were not a complete failure. I do think I am better than before but not cured. One ESWT doc said the Ossatron might be better suited for patientes who had previous foot surgery. He used three different machines so I tend to think he was unbiased in his opinion.

Currently and for about 5 days my feet have been doing much better. Does it have anything to do with my PT that I have been doing? Does it have anything to do with me wearing Birk sandals for the past week? You got me but I try not to get to excited because I have been through this many times and for no apparent reason I will experience a setback. Yesterday I did a lot of mowing and yardwork (in Birks) and my feet are around a pain level of 1. In years past I would almost be ready to pronounce myself cured but after dealing with the ups and downs I would want at least 3-4 months of no pain and run 5 miles before I made any pronouncement and even then I would not know why?.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Dr. Z on 7/12/04 at 12:26 (155180)

I still remember that time period. My first posting I was told I should be put in jail, for using ESWT

Re: Thanks Dorothy

John from MN on 7/12/04 at 12:28 (155181)

I understand you have tried many treatments and are frustrated with your results and you are pursing treatments with long case history of success. I would like to email you a private message. Could you provide an email address?

Re: Thanks Dorothy

DANNI on 7/12/04 at 13:02 (155183)

Changing an alternator belt is much easier and results in more predictable results. There are much less variable involved to name a few. I still ask that you link one study that even proves scar tissue is there, and that rubbing it will make it go away. The reason a Dr cant promise to make everyting go away is called liability and trial lawyers

Re: Thanks Dorothy

DANNI on 7/12/04 at 13:03 (155184)

I didnt say John lied. I cut and pasted the comment direct from MN and it included John's name. It is a few posts up the list.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

LeeB on 7/12/04 at 13:10 (155186)

Kathy thank you very much for your advice and kind support. I have indeed read Scott's book and will try the yoga exercies. You're right about the pain feeding depression.
The more I study this, the more I realize that my condition seems quite different from most PF sufferers. No morning pain. Also, I've been trying to break in some custom orthotics (1 hour/day, minimal standing/walking), and both times ended up waking up with a sharp, isolated pain in the exact spot illustrated in Scott's intro. It took three weeks away from the orthotics the first time for it to go away. I'm thinking now THAT is classic PF! It's sharp and precise. By contrast, the pain I've experienced over nine years only comes on after standing (or walking) a while and is very diffuse. It's in the heel, yes, but spread out over the heel and not just at the insertion point. Pain also radiates through my arch, into the bottom of the foot near the base of my toes, and my achilles tendon and inside ankle. It's a dull, 'weakening', very uncomfortable ACHE and not a sharp pain like this isolated point produced by courtesy of the orthotics. I've tried to describe this to several Dr's, the orthotist, and a massage therapist but they all quickly decide it's PF. Maybe they're right, but now I'm wondering if I even HAVE PF?! Those I've seen pooh-pooh anything related to nerves or another condition. I'm more confused than EVER! I'm becoming skeptical of ESWT as I can't really point to isloted, specific points to direct it to. Not sure what to do next, any opinions welcome.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

John from MN on 7/12/04 at 13:18 (155188)

Here is Dr. Sandell comments, you may or may not have read.

bbv.cgi?n=153550

Re: Thanks John MN

Pete R on 7/12/04 at 14:13 (155195)

All I can say is thanks to John for keeping us updated on his progress. Pls continue. It does at least give us chronic pf's some hope that if we find the right practitioner a cure can be there.

I just don't undertand the negative people on here. Two of them Pauline and Julie no longer have pf which perhaps makes me think they've forgotten what the pain and debilitating condition it is. As for studies on scar tissue... who cares. We've had studies on eswt coming out of our ears which can be disected by anyone to give them the results they want. Eliot was good at pointing this out I seem to recall. Let's just be positive that another person has been cured by something a bit different. If that results in another person being helped then John's effort in sharing his story is worthwhile.

Re: Thanks John MN

John from MN on 7/12/04 at 14:57 (155198)

Pete R

Thank you for your kinds words. Believe it or not, there is hope out there. It can be a step of faith to think that proper TFM can fix your feet. I hope you find your cure.

John

Re: Thanks Dorothy

John from MN on 7/12/04 at 15:16 (155203)

I do not think ESWT could hurt you, not nearly as bad as release surgery. I know when I first heard about ESWT I was ready to fly to HealthTronics headquaters in Atlanta and meet with the CEO personally. I called every doctor in my area but they could not get approved by the HMO's.

What has been your personall experience with ESWT. Has it made a significant difference in your patients?

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Dr. Sandell on 7/12/04 at 15:47 (155205)

John-
I understand your concerns. However, I hope that you are not implying that these are the only patients that I have helped with their plantar fasciitis. I would also like to mention that I did not state that there is a 99% success rate with the transverse friction massage procedure. You won't find anything in the literature to support this because it does not exist. However, it has been said that 'clinically we perceive before scientifically we understand'. Insulin was used years before we understood the pharmacology of the drug. Although transverse friction massage has not been subjected to intense research, the biology of scar tissue formation and soft tissues response to injury is well documented. Soft tissue mobilization is based on these principles. I think that it is important that we stay objective, this website does not encapsulate the entire population with plantar fasciitis as I am sure you are aware. If you have any specific questions for me, I will be more than happy to address them for you.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

DANNI on 7/12/04 at 15:59 (155207)

Can I get a link to a document that describes the actual physiological change of the tissue and that it is actually scar tissue and how did they conclude that?

Re: Thanks John MN

Julie on 7/12/04 at 16:34 (155210)

Pete, I'm not negative, I'm cautious, and realistic. What I said was that I am glad John is cured (and I said last week that the treatment as described on varius websites makes good sense if there is scar tissue) but that the treatment that cured him is not necessarily going to be the cure for every case of PF; and I said it as an antidote to his understandable overenthusiasm. Apart from that, I agree with everything John H has said, and won't repeat any of it.
.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

john h on 7/12/04 at 16:55 (155211)

From the Doctors I have talked with when you feel something under the skin that is bumpy it may be scar tissue and it may be something else. My understanding from pathological views a healthy fascia (tendon) is sort of a white color. One that is not healthy is sort of blue. This is not scar tissue it is disease tissue which may not in any way be scarred. I asked a Physical Therapist today if the small nodules he noticed in my foot were scar tissue. He said he had no way of knowing but did say one foot did not seem to have any and the other foot had less since I started with the stretching.

Re: Thanks John MN

Pauline on 7/12/04 at 16:59 (155212)

Pete,
I am sorry that you don't think I remember the pain and frustration that everyone goes through when they have P.F. but having had 3 cases of it I am hear to testify that I remember my share of P.F. pain very well. I seriously doubt you hold any more of a record than the rest of us when it comes to experience it. I think you've read my posts about Dr. Sandells treatment wrong.

In addition, I can also tell you there is a lot more pain in this world than is the topic for discussion on this site. It is my hope and prayer that you or anyone posting on heelspurs never falls victim to it.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

john h on 7/12/04 at 17:15 (155213)

Dr. Sandell I am not sure who posted the 99% cure rate but it was posted in conjuction with your name and perhpas without your permsission. My concern is that we have many people who read this board who are not well informed of plantar fasciatis or fasciosis. When they are presented with a 99% cure rate they may quickly jump to the conclusion that this procedure without a doubt will cure them only to later have their hopes crushed when it does not work. Over the years we have seen many scams on this board and statistics presented to us that we have no way of checking out. Some of our posters are so enthusiased when they find relief they think and post that we should all try the treatment. I am open to most any type of treatment and have tried most of the accepted and many of the non conventional treatments. I personally welcome your post and the enthusiasm John from Mn brings about the results he has obtained. I like many on this board have had the condition for nearly 10 years in both feet so I tend to be healthy skeptical until I see some hard data. I continue to watch with much interest on the people you are treating and there outcome over the next 12 months. Your previous post presented your position very clearly and it made sense. Thank you for your interest in our pain.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

john h on 7/12/04 at 17:24 (155214)

For several years Dr. Z had a chart with all his patients he had treated with ESWT. They would email him on a regular basis with what their pain level was before treatment and what it was after each post. There must have been a hundred or so on that chart so we look on any given day to see how they were all doing. I do not know if that chart is still availabl or not. There are some national statistics on the effectivness of ESWT which would appear to be reliable. My personal experience is 4 treatments on each foot with two different machines. I am better than before treatment but not cured. One of the Healthtronics officers did in fact pay for 6 of our board members ESWT treatment in Canada. There picture may still be on this board. We called them the Ossatron Six and ScottR was one of these people. Dr Ed has been providing the low energy treatment for some years and probably has a good feel for the success of this form of treatment. The last I heard Dr. Z had just about quit doing PF releases in favor of ESWT. There is a world of statistics available on ESWT treatment on the web. Especially in Germany.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

John from MN on 7/12/04 at 17:38 (155217)

From my experience ESWT does break up scar tissue but no nearly enough. I think for a mild PF patient you might be able to get by with ESWT but TFM is much more thorough.

My pain level only went down 1 point on the scale after my four treatments with ESWT. I thought it was the 'majic bullet' too when it came out. After having the treatment I am much less convinced that its the best way to go.

John h, after 10 years of PF pain and many disapointments, I am going to talk to Dr. Sandell to see if we can't make some special arrangments for you if you are interested.

Re: Thanks John MN

john h on 7/12/04 at 17:38 (155218)

this board would serve no function if all we reported was success stories. unfortunately for every success story I have seen on the board I have seen 10 failures. we all welcome success stories but we also seek truth and understanding. when you have been here long enough to see some to the scams that have been presented you will look at all success stories very carefully before you get your hopes to high. one big success story I still hang my hat on is Mohez who was with us for a few years. he was a long time sufferer (years) and was one of the original Ossatron 6. Last year Mohez reported after either 11 or 12 ESWT treatments on each foot with three different machines he had been pain free for over a year and was running and doing all the things he once did. he did not suggest we all go get 12 eswt treatments but did let us know that he was apparently cured and it 'may' have been the 12 treatments. Judy S never talks about it but her husband John had PF surgery some years ago and it was an apparent complete success as he now plays ball regularly. I remind everone that 90% of PF cases are cured with every day conventional treatment. This is millions of successes. This board is and always has been mostly hard core cases who have not found successful treatment. These hard core cases have been resistant to what works for the 90% and it is unlikely that any one treatment is going to work for all of us. I have easily spent $10,000 on trying to cure PF.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Pauline on 7/12/04 at 17:40 (155220)

John,
I personally had doubts about that list for many reasons as did others.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Pauline on 7/12/04 at 17:42 (155221)

Wow this would be great. I'd love to see John h get treatment from Dr. Sandell.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Dr. Z on 7/12/04 at 17:48 (155224)

Did you have high energy ESWT John MN. I can't remember.

Re: Thanks John MN

John from MN on 7/12/04 at 17:54 (155226)

According to Dr. Sandell I was a typical patient. He told me he gets all the patients that have failed that have seen multiple doctors. Over the past 5 years I have easily spent over $32k not to mention all the loss of income.

12 treatments is the most I have ever heard someone getting. You would think his feet are a nuclear bio hazard by now. I am glad he is doing better.

Goose is doing much better but I think it will take atleast 10 patients to fully recover before you are a believer. Thats ok, we all walk to a different drummer.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

John from MN on 7/12/04 at 17:55 (155227)

I think it was high enery, 1,800 burst per foot per treatment on an Ossatron machine

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Dr. Z on 7/12/04 at 18:40 (155234)

That is alot more energy then any human hand could provide. Not saying that TMS does help or work but its doesn't compare with ESWT when discussing scar tissue resolution. It must work in another method or manner.
I have been thinking about this ART, TMS and here is my opinion as to how it may work
There are fascial planes that separate tendons, muscule groups expecially in the foot. The gliding of each of these compartment which may be tight or they may be adhesived. SO local massage in the proper plane and area could release or make these compartment move better.
These adhesion within these fascial planes could effect the windlass mechanism of the plantar fascia and not allow it to glide during the gait cycle.
I am thinking at loud but this may contribute to plantar fasciitis. I know of no where in the literature that makes this distinction.
Any doctor or anyone have anythoughts about this ?

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Dr. Z on 7/12/04 at 18:41 (155236)

I am not banking on anything except that ESWT is a very effective treatment that has already cured thousands of patients that you won't hear from on this board.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Pauline on 7/12/04 at 19:03 (155239)

Dorothy,
I'm not a doctor, but I think you're correct in your thinking. I remember being told the P.F. is made up just as you say.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

char on 7/12/04 at 19:26 (155244)

O.K. Exactly what is the procedure John in Minn. does? HOw many treatments are recommended? I live in North Dakota, and if you few say you are healed, then I'm heading there also (MInn.)

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Pauline on 7/12/04 at 19:47 (155246)

If you do go, please make certain you come back and post.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

John from MN on 7/12/04 at 20:04 (155249)

Here is some info on his proceure. I would recommend calling him where he would be able to help you. His name is Dr. Sandell, 763.315.0466.

bbv.cgi?n=153550

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Informing 2 on 7/12/04 at 22:18 (155258)

Pauline,
That list was real, Everyone on that list were signed by my patients and mailed to Scott
The real question does Pauline even exist and who are you.

Re: Thanks John MN

Dorothy on 7/12/04 at 22:29 (155261)

I agree, Pete R!

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Dorothy on 7/12/04 at 22:40 (155267)

Pauline -
I'm starting to think this with more and more frequency: what are you talking about?

You wrote:
Dorothy,
I'm not a doctor, but I think you're correct in your thinking. I remember being told the P.F. is made up just as you say.

And in response, I say: I have no idea what you are talking about.

I know you are not a doctor. You are a poster.

Re: Fascia

Julie on 7/13/04 at 02:41 (155272)

I would agree with this, Dr Z. Fascia is present throughout the body, encasing muscles and their individual fibres (and our organs too). Gliding is its function, enabling muscles to move freely within their fascia casings without binding. Many factors, including age and lack of exercise, can cause fascia to contract. Injury can result in adhesions. So it makes sense that in cases of PF to which such adhesions have contributed, massage across the fascial planes should be able to help.
.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Pauline on 7/13/04 at 08:01 (155274)

Sorry Dorothy,
After rereading the post that I thought I was answering it was actually posted by Dr. Z. Unfortunately 'Thanks Dorothy' was at the top of it.
Hopefully I'm entitled to making an error, thinking that it was your post and will be forgiven by you.

Here is the post that I was responding to. As you can see it specifically asked if any other doctors or anyone had any ideas. That's the reason for posting that I am not a doctor.

Hope this clears things up for you and that it hasn't cause you a great deal of unrest.
Cheers for a happier day.

Re: Thanks Dorothy
Posted by Dr. Z on 7/12/04 at 18:40
That is alot more energy then any human hand could provide. Not saying that TMS does help or work but its doesn't compare with ESWT when discussing scar tissue resolution. It must work in another method or manner.
I have been thinking about this ART, TMS and here is my opinion as to how it may work
There are fascial planes that separate tendons, muscule groups expecially in the foot. The gliding of each of these compartment which may be tight or they may be adhesived. SO local massage in the proper plane and area could release or make these compartment move better.
These adhesion within these fascial planes could effect the windlass mechanism of the plantar fascia and not allow it to glide during the gait cycle.
I am thinking at loud but this may contribute to plantar fasciitis. I know of no where in the literature that makes this distinction.
Any doctor or anyone have anythoughts about this ?

Re: Thanks Dorothy

john h on 7/13/04 at 09:05 (155286)

I for one and I am sure Dr. Z feel very confident Pauline exist. Her real name may not be Pauline she may be named Honey Bun but you can bet she is for real. Your post may well produce her wrath upon you and your unborn. She knows her stuff in many areas.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

john h on 7/13/04 at 09:22 (155287)

Dr.Z there is enough medical literature out there on ESWT and its results that a patient can have some confidence in his/her odds on having a favorable outcome. As you know the Dr. in St Lousis offered a ESWT treatment for $1600 on the board a few years ago. A second treatment was to cost $700 if the first one did not work. He uses the same machine as you. Since he is only 1 hour from me by air I flew up about 1.5 yrs ago for a treatment. No cure but perhaps a slight improvement. Last month I decided to take him up on his advertised $700 second treatment. He has not returned my call. His name is Dr. A----------I have not given up on ESWT because I am very aware of Mohez and his many treatments before the cure came. I am going to hound Dr.A about the second treatment. I hope it was just an oversight on his part but I worry about unreturned calls and its in the mail. Hope thing are well in your fair village. Do you still have the same staff? Where is your Dad? Little Rock remains hot. 98 degrees today with a 117 degree heat index. For the past week my feet have been only at a pain level of 1. I am always reluctant to post that because inevitably I go south after such a post, It may be when I get to feeling good like this I do something stupid and step up my activity to cause the relapse??? Perhaps the PT I have been doing for about 3 weeks is helping??? I have been wearing birks only for 3 weeks maybe this is it??? Or perhaps I am just experiencing one of those almost pain free periods. This disease remains a mystery that Sherlock would not solve. As agent Mulder would say 'the answer is out there somewhere'? When is the last time you did a PF release? How about your fellow Doctors who are using the ESWT machine--are they still doing as many releases?

Re: Thanks Dorothy

Pauline on 7/13/04 at 09:35 (155289)

John,
What's this all about?

Re: Thanks Dorothy

john h on 7/13/04 at 09:42 (155291)

I would think (just guessing so Doctors weigh in) that scar tissue in and of itself does not cause pain. It is when the scar tissue touches on a nerve that pain is perceived. Many of us have scar tissue all over our body caused by many injuries and it is of no consequence.

Dr. Baxter of the Baxter Procedure fame thinks that much of the pain many people experience is caused by inflamed fascia located over the Baxter Nerve. His procedure is to remove a small half moon section (1/2' wide) directly over this nerve so it can not press on the nerve and cause pain. It has worked for many people including the world class runner Carl Lewis who went back to professional running after undergoing the procedure. If your pain is caused by something else then obviously this procedure will not work. I continue to think we lump many fascia/nerve/muscle pain problems into once catch all catagory we call Plantar Fasciaitis/Fasciosis and that we need individal treatments tailored to our specific condition. This might be ESWT, stretching, orthotics. weight loss. massage. or any number or combination of thearapies. This is also why we need a Doctor who will take the time and who is trained and informed to address our problem and hopefully come up with a good diagnosis and plan of treatment. It is hard for us lay people to recognize a good Doctor when we see one. Because he may act like a jerk does not mean he is not a Doctor who is well trained and informed and can help you. Some Doctors with great bedside manners may be lousy Doctors. When I first went to visit Dr.Z he inundated me with books on ESWT and obviously had read them all as he would go to specific paragraphs and explain his thinking to me on the subject.His enthusiasm was contagious. Good thing he was not charging me by the hour as we spent hours together. I knew this guy believed in what he was doing and clearly understood what the machine could do and how it worked. Our local Ossatron Dr. in Little Rock is an MD foot and ankle specialist. I visted him and found I knew more about his machine than he did. He spent most of our visit asking me questions so clearly I would want someone with more experience if I were to ever have an Ossatron treatment.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Pauline on 7/13/04 at 09:48 (155292)

John,
Do you think at this point you no longer really have real P.F.? Is it possible that the residual pain you feel could be attributed to something else?

Maybe it's just permanent tissue damage due to injections, or an arthritic condition, or degeneration of connective tissue or maybe even just weakened muscles do to orthotic dependency.

I'm beginning to think a P.F. diagnosis is sometimes becoming a catch all diagnosis in some cases.

Re: Thanks Dorothy

john h on 7/13/04 at 11:35 (155302)

Pauline: Someone posted something to the effect does Pauline really exist? What that was all about I have no idea.

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Sherry on 7/14/04 at 10:09 (155404)

Dear John,

Where is your post aobut TFM? When did you post it?

Thanks, Sherry

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

Sherry on 7/14/04 at 10:09 (155405)

Dear John,

Where is your post about TFM? When did you post it?

Thanks, Sherry

Re: Delaying the inevitable?

jschac on 7/26/04 at 16:34 (156289)

Lee, I am going to start posting occasionally on this Board talking about trigger points, which can mimick the symptoms of PF. I rubbed my calves for 20 minutes, and my 'atypical PF' virtually went away. What I suffered from was a really tight, tender spot in my soleus (lower calf) muscle. This is the trigger point, and it was referring pain to my heel.

Check out the book on trigger points by Clair Davies:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1572242507/qid=1090877493/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-9233592-1748765?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Poke around you calf with your thumb or something like the handle of a screwdriver. You will know whether you have a trigger point the minute you poke it, cause it will hurt like heck!

You have to rub them real hard to get them to loosen up, but I am virtually pain free after just a few weeks.

Good luck to you!