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John From MN

Posted by Pete R on 7/16/04 at 06:18 (155583)

John, I think its been about 6 weeks since you first reported. Are you still doing ok ? Improving, staying the same etc ? Still having treatment from Dr S, still wearing orthotics ? How long will you continue to see Dr S, how many treatments you had so far.

Sorry for all the Q's but keen to know how you're getting on.

Thanks,

Pete

Re: John From MN

John from MN on 7/16/04 at 07:44 (155585)

Thanks for asking; I am running 6 miles now. I met with Dr. Sandell Tuesday and he told me that I should stop walking around the house with my shoes on and start going barefoot. I nearly fell out of my chair when he told me this. I have been wearing shoes with Orthoticts religiously for the past 5 years. Then the most unbelievable thing happened. He then said that next week he wants me to going running a few miles, BAREFOOT on grass.

When I heard this I was stunned. He said I needed to further work my intrinsic muscles and my fascia was in great shape. Then he said in a few months I should be able to get rid of my Orthoticts. This was all too good to be true. But with the results I have gotten so far I believe its possible.

I did get patella tendonitis, but the doc took care of that in 3 treatments. My weight is going down and my life is getting back to normal. Every couple of weeks I see Dr. Sandell to help me with posture etc.

I am very grateful to be cured and do not take it for granted. Now all of those painful days walking in the grocery store are but a memory. I thank God every day for my healing. I wish the same for everybody on this board.

Re: John From MN

Pauline on 7/16/04 at 10:08 (155594)

John,
I'm interested in your patella tendonitis. I'm not quite sure what that is, but I've been told my petella isn't tracking correctly and have been given exercises to help strengthen the tendons around it to help it track.

For those that know that I treated with Dr. Zingas for my P.F. No is isn't treating my knee. He strictly treats foot and ankle. Another specialist is treating this condition or should I say following it.

Was tracking involved in your patella tendonitis? How did it act and what did Dr. Sandell do to help it.

First the feet, now the knee, can the hip be far behind? Have I hit the golden years already?

Re: John From MN

John from MN on 7/16/04 at 10:46 (155599)

After I had been running for about a month I started feeling pain in my tendons just below the kneecap. I asked Dr. Sandell what he thought it could be so he examined that area. He said, I had patella tendonitis, then he took his tool and started doing TFM on both tendons, three treatments later my knees no longer hurt while running. Dr. Sandell said that because I had been inactive for 5 years my tendons had gotten too weak.

He told me any muscle, tendon, ligament that has been injured, scared etc, he can fix. So if you have carpel tunnel, tarsell tunnel, knee pain, hip pain, back pain, neck pain, PF, and a whole list of muscle, tendon, ligament pain, he can fix. Dr. Sandell treats the whole body, not just the foot. He thinks surgery for these kinds of issues is most of the time not needed if properly treated. Also he has saved many people who have had slipped disks in their back from getting surgery. There are rare cases as always who might need surgery for these problems. If you tare a ligament from a bone you would obviously need it surgically reattached.

As far as tracking goes I have no idea if he did that or what that is.

My hips were way too tight and over extended. He did some painful technique that fixed that too. I have to say this, Dr. Sandell can fix a lot of things, and pain is always involved. It's a small price to pay for the great result I get. Remember, Dr. Sandell deals a lot with sports injuries and those are sometimes the hardest to fix.

Re: John From MN

Marty from SLC on 7/16/04 at 10:55 (155601)

That's gear news John! We are all a bit envious of coarse! Please keep us posted

Re: John From MN

Marty from SLC on 7/16/04 at 12:38 (155606)

i sure wish i could give hime a try :( not possible :(

Re: Marty from SLC

John from MN on 7/16/04 at 12:59 (155610)

How bad is your PF Marty of SLC

Re: John from MN

Pete on 7/17/04 at 07:17 (155669)

What does Dr S reckon is the normal amount of visits to him that a patient (the average one) needs to be fixed ? I realise this is the $64k question but just as an average would suffice. For those thinking of visiting him travelling a distance, and hence having to stay in MN at great cost, it would be useful to either make them visit or discount the idea entirely.

For example, I can walk for about 45 mins at a time. If I rest continually, prior to the pain coming on, then I can walk a bit longer throughout the day.

Thanks again

Re: John from MN

John from MN on 7/17/04 at 12:57 (155690)

I was an extreme case, my entire fascia on both feet were scared from PF so mine was about 40 treatments. Understand that each treatment Dr. Sandell would only work one foot so you would probably do 2 treatments at a time if you were out of town to see him.

My guess is 20 treatments for the average patient. This could cost anywhere from $1,500 to $4,000, Still a lot less expensive than ESWT and a far superior result.

Place came here for two weeks and got great results. Everyone is different so I would direct you to Dr. Sandell for further questions on treatments.

I think if you were to come here two weeks at a time you should be able to make significant progress. I know for a fact that after your fist two weeks your PF would improve greatly.

Goose is starting to run again after 2 painful years of PF. She had the ESWT therapy without any improvement.

You might want to check with your insurance company to see what type of out-of –network benefits you may have.

Good luck Pete.

Re: John from MN

Pauline on 7/17/04 at 15:50 (155693)

John,
Wish your doctor could fix my new problem. I attempted to stomp on a tiny insect with my foot and when my heel hit the floor I heard a large snap and you got it I snapped the small muscle that runs from the heel to the knee and messed up the larger one big time.

Off to the E.R. for trying to kill a bug and now I'm going to be laid up for a few weeks until things heal. I don't think any surgery will be involved at least I hope not. I'll see my Ortho. next week for his opinion. He's going to say what are you going to injure next. All this when I was planning to ride with Lance in the Alps. You know to help him make it to the winners circle:*

I'm using ice, pain meds and Dr. Reynolds Jade cream. I'm not planning to stomp out anymore little insects any time soon.

Re: John from MN

John from MN on 7/17/04 at 15:55 (155694)

Pauline,

Sorry to hear about your accident. Hopefully everything will be all right.

Re: John from MN

john h on 7/17/04 at 17:20 (155697)

Good thing that was not Dr. Z you were stomping on.

Re: John from MN

john h on 7/17/04 at 17:32 (155700)

john from mn: I do not want to rain on a parade but is this going a bit far to state 'I know for a fact that after your first two weeks you PF would improve greatly'? I would not make that statement for any treatment, any Doctor, on any day. To encourage someone to fly to MN for a few weeks and spend $2000-$4000 for an unproven (where is the medical statistics) treatment is going a bit far. So far we are talking about several people who are reporting results that I still am not clear on reporting on this board. I read no major reports on this treatment in medical periodicals as being what you are reporting so I say to anyone reading my post make sure you know what your getting into. Spending two weeks in a city away from your home with an unproven treatment based on reports from several people is questionable at best. If some chose to call this a negative post then so be it. ESWT is an FDA approved treatment with medical statistics from the FDA and other large reporting institutions to back up their claims.ESWT did not cure me but I had good data going in and their were no promises of a cure.

Re: John from MN

John from MN on 7/17/04 at 18:17 (155709)

John h,

It is a proven treatment method. Did you not read Dr. Sandells posts? It is all based on science.. It was no fluke I got better, Place got better, goose is getting better and Bill is better. Dr. Z would have ripped me to shreds if it did not have any merit.

If the solution to PF hit you in the forehead you still would not believe it. You are very negative on any solution to fix PF. I seriously think that you enjoy having the crutch of PF or you would have found a solution to your PF within the past 10 years. If I did not believe so much in this method of treatment I would not be making the claims I have stated in my posts. I challenge you to prove me wrong. How many people need to be cured by Dr. Sandell until you finally believe that this is the solution?

You need to ask questions of Place and goose about their treatment so you get a different understanding of the solution. Maybe they can explain it better than I can.

I know I am a little hard on you in this post but I would love to see you get better too. If I could set it up where you could get some guaranteed results would you be interested? Bet you no one ever put that on your plate before. Understand, Dr. Sandell only takes patients who want to get better.

I will bet you $1,000 that goose will be able to run a mile pain free by the end of August if she continues treatment. She is going to start running this week and probably will achieve that by the end of July.

Just so you know, I have no business arrangements with Dr. Sandell and I do not profit from referring clients. I am doing this as part of my healing process. Again, talk to Place and Goose, they understand the process of getting better. Yes there is some pain involved in treatment but it's a small price to pay for a life without PF.

Re: John from MN

Dr. Z on 7/17/04 at 18:27 (155711)

I feel the pain. If sounds like the plantaris tendon that was ruptured. That is one painful injury. Thank G-d it wasn't the Achilles tendon. This is usually a basketball or tennis injury if it is this specific tendon I am talking about. Nothing much you can do if it is the Plantaris except RICE.

Re: John from MN

john h on 7/18/04 at 11:54 (155756)

John from MN: Being shot down over Laos was hard on me. A critcal post is a walk in the park. I will continue to challenge what appears to me to be 'overstatements of the facts'. We have people who have had success with many treatments so if it works great and your post will make people aware of such a treatments which is also good. If they choose to make the trip to MN for a week or two or three then I have not problem with them making that choice. I have seen promises of cures on this board before No one has yet come up with the Holy Grail for PF and I do challenge anyone who post such with out scientific evidence. When and if someone ever discover a cure for PF they wlll surely present scientific papers and evidence before a group of their peers so it can stand the scrutiny of men and women of science. I have traveled 3 trips to N.J. and 1 trip to Missiouri spending my own money to seek treatment for PF. Not much of both conventional and non conventional treatments I have not tried. I have had this for going on 10 years and I am better but not cured. We have people who post on this board who have had this problem for 20 years. To suggest that any of them including me may use this as a crutch is disingenious at the least and should make anyone further scrutinize your claims. If there was ever a person who miss full use of their feet it is me as my life was very much involved with running,basketball,baseball and being outdoors. I do not need to prove you wrong you need to prove you are right. That is the way it works in medicine

Re: To both John's

Pete on 7/19/04 at 06:55 (155807)

As a 4 year sufferer I see both your points of view. I am one cyncial individual when it comes to cures since like you I've had my share of practitioners lieing to me (strong statement, yes, but its true, many take the £ and run) However, i think when someone genuninely claims some success it makes us all sit up and take notice. ESWT didn't work for me and I have yet to hear from anyone on this board who has been helped by it. Dr Z will argue otherwise, and I fully respect his knowledge and opinion.

The difference with Dr S's treatment protocol is that he has backed it up with a laymans explanantion on how it works. It makes sense to me and if I was nearer (I'm in the UK) I'd gladly speculate $5k to visit. In fact if i could be cured in a couple of weeks I come over. Finding someone in the UK it proving pretty impossible. Dr S's theories certainly sound better than continually proscribing orthotics which is the token treatment in the UK. I have about 9 pairs I think but will NEVER purchase more unless the underlying condition is treated.

JOHN from MN please keep reporting your success or otherwise. Hopefully, Goose and Place will do the same.

John H. I'm as cyncial as you normally but Dr S does make sense.

Re: To both John's

John from MN on 7/19/04 at 07:56 (155808)

Pete

If you are serious about coming to the United State there are a lot of companies out there that finance medical procedures. If you do a search on the web you will find them. They can get the cost down to as little at $100 a month.

Just one of many options. I am not a big advocate of getting into debt but sometimes I would make an exception.

Re: To both John's

john h on 7/19/04 at 09:56 (155820)

Pete: I would by no means advise you not to try Dr. Sandell's treatment. If he was near I would try it. I do say go into any treatment protocol with your eyes wide open and be prepared for any procedure to fail no matter what they say. As one who has had PF surgery,TTS Surgery,Cheilectory,ESWT (4 times),Accupuncture, shots, 7-8 pair of orthosis, two many creams and lotions to mention, PT, reflexology,massage,etc I look very closely and with great skepticism at claims of 90 + percent cure rates. ESWT does work for some people. There are just to many reputable studies both here and in Europe to doubt this. Dr. Z had a chart for several years where the hundred or more people who had ESWT could post there results on a monthly basis. There have been people on this board cured by ESWT. Unfortunately not me. My concern is that people may be led to believe that some product or procedure may cure them and they will be out thousands of dollars. I am not just talking about Dr. Sandell but about many procucts and procedures that have come along on this board over the past 10 years. I think we all welcome reports of apparent cures and there have been many. We should all be careful so as not to lead others to think that what worked for us is the holy grail of PF because others may pin their hopes on this and spend thousands of dollars. Before I tried ESWT I waited until hundreds if not thousands had tried it and their were some statistics on cure/failure rates. Reliable information from the FDA and Sources in Europe were and are readily avialable. Until a few years ago we had a large Canadian clinc who performed thousands of ESWT treatments (Bayshore). They had very good records and statistics and one of their Officers posted frequently on this board about their success rate over the years.Where a high energy ESWT treatment in the U.S. can range from $3000-$8000 depending on the machine you could get the same treatment in Austalia for less than $100. I have personally talked to Doctors in South Africa,Australia, and Europe who use ESWT. They clearly knew I was not headed their way and all noted cure rates in excess of 50% which is more than acceptble to me. Patient selection is sort of a must with ESWT. I was never a good candidate due to having surgery, age, and length of time I had the disease. The Doctors told me this but I was ready to invest my money. I suspect in Europe it would be under $1000 but do not know. If I was in Australia I would probably do what Mohez did and get 11 ESWT treatments which finally cured him. If I lived near Dr. ED I would sure like to try the low energy Sonocur and its multiple treatment protocol but like most on this board finances prevent us from trying everything we read about. At 10 years bilateral PF with a pain level of 1-3 I am lucky as I read reports often of people in wheelchairs, crawling to the bathroom and reporting pain levels of 10. My heart goes out to them and I truly do not want anyone to be taken advantage of. Dr. Z for a year or more gave out one free ESWT treatment a month to a member on this board. My first ever treatment from Dr. Z was free and both he and I knew that since I had previous surgery the chance of a cure was less than that of someone who had no surgery. Having met Dr. Z on various occasions and had diner with him, his wife, and his staff I will say he is a man of good character and truly has his patients interest at heart. Dr. Ed never mentions he performs Sonocur ESWT but he does and has seen patients cured with his procedures. We are lucky to have these two guys here for the long haul to offer advice and information to the thousands of people who come here for help.They give freely of their time and information. For those seeing Dr. Sandell I am very happy to hear you are doing well and hope in the long run he has something that will be a proven procedure for all and his method will not just be available in MN but to all Chiropractors..

Re: To both John's

john h on 7/19/04 at 10:19 (155821)

Pete if there was truly a 100% cure I would borrow, mortgage my home, pay what ever it took to get the cure. When we are in pain we typically lose our good reasoning and launch into things we would never do other wise. People with cancer go to great lengths and jump into many scams in search of a magic cure. We have a host of Cancer clinics in Mexico where people with incurable cancer flock to and pay hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Which ESWT machine were you treated with? What was the cost? Is this treatment covered by insurance in the UK? As you probably know there are a number of different types of machines. Some use high power and some use low power. Multiple treaments are often needed for improvement. Operator experience is very important as you may know. The bean is very narrow and if the beam is not located properly--no help. I think Germany is sort of the Mecca of ESWT. Dr. Rompe a guru of ESWT from Europe I think made a few post on the board at one time. Although ESWT has not cured me it did provide some help and I am still a believer in it. Unfortunately we never see the thousand upon thousands who are helped appear on this board. They are cured and get on with their lives. This board is perhaps the best board available on PF but since from 3-6 million new cases of PF appear each year we do not have enough posters to begin to even approach 1% of PF patients. We have the very chronic cases who happen to be computer literate and stumble in here looking for help. Most of our posters are chronic and probably a large number have had the problem over 5 years and have tried to many treatments to cover. If one reads this board regularly you tend to think what is posted here is the norm. It is far from that. 90% if all new PF cases are cured within the first year with simple standard treatments. I bet if a Doctor of any kind only selected PF patients who had just gotten the disease and treated them with standard recoginzed protocol for PF he could proclain a cure rate of 90%. He would probably be right. Let him treat patients who had the disease for 5 years and he would be lucky to cure 20%.There are numbers within numbers.

Re: To both John's

Pete on 7/19/04 at 13:58 (155840)

John from MN - Coming to MN would obviously be a big decision. Money is a small issue but not the biggest. I'd be more concerned about travelling the distance and Dr S being unable to help, or worse he cures me, but I relapse on my return home.Having a dodgy back also (don't so many of us PF's have bad backs as well !)doesn't attract me to spending 10 hours on a plane. Staying in a hotel for a number of weeks also doesn't help, I'd die of boredom, and I couldn't exactly see the sights since I can' walk that far either ! However, getting some life back is the aim so if I could be certain a cure was there, I'd suffer the emotional, physical and financial consequences. I've spent the equivilent of probably $20k anyway

John H. I have 2 eswt's. The 1st was a rip off on a grand scale. The guy had his foot anatomy text book out when I visited. The 2nd was a different guy and was better, and my foot felt worse after ( as it should do with the micro injury caused) but only recovered to the normal pain scales. I just felt it was unjustified to do more and there is virtually no info in the UK or indeed practitioners who offer ESWT. I tried to speaking to a couple of clinics in Germany but none seemed to offer the machines quoted by the docs here. There machines may of course been better, but how do you tell ?

I also remember visiting a guy 2 years ago who reckoned my pf was connected to myofascial pain and trigger points. It seemed to make sense but by the 4th time I'd seen him I have researched it more than him (based on the Travell and Simons methodology) and it was quite obvious he was 'treating' the trigger points incorrectly. However, not before he has sold me the obligatory £300 orthotics and another £200 for his time. Rip off, again. I never wore the orthotics because they didn't 'fit'

I'm still trying to track down someone in the uk who offers something different from the norm, similar to Dr S. There is an athletics meet near me this weekend when it is hoped a number of our UK olympic athletes will compete. Speaking with them is of course impossible but I might get to talk to some more minor athletes / physios who can help, with similar injuries they've suffered. Short of that it's a case of trawling through the local phone books ands seeining if any practitioner offers something from the norm.

Pete

Re: To both John's

John from MN on 7/19/04 at 14:14 (155841)

Pete

I understand what a huge hassle it is coming to the U.S. On your quest to find your solution remember that your fascia has a lot of scaring and because of that it is not working properly. Unless you find a solution that can break up the tissue and realign it back into a functional manner, you will not be able to get back to a normal life.

Due to the nature of being from another country, I would take your time and listen to the others on this board who have been cured by Dr. Sandell before you come all this way. It is possible that someone in your area might be able to do the same thing; you just need to be attuned to what to look for in a doctor.

What Dr. Sandell does is not some radical Eastern medicine Voo Doo. He basically works on soft tissue injuries. PF is a soft tissue injury and there is a tone of medical science which backs up fixing tissue.

On this board we call your foot problem Plantar Fasciitis. I prefer to call it a soft tissue injury of the fascia. I think that is more accurate. So from now on I will refer to it as STI. Let me know if I can help you.

Re: John from MN

Pete on 7/19/04 at 14:41 (155844)

In your many phone calls to practitioners before you found Dr S, what sort of questions were you asking them ? I can think of many but would welcome your thoughts.

Pete

Re: John from MN

John from MN on 7/19/04 at 14:59 (155850)

I was looking for anything outside the normal treatment realm. You should be looking for someone who does TFM daily and a good history of healing PF patients. If you can't find that then come to the states. My guess is that there is someone close by you just have to find them.

Re: John from MN

Pete on 7/19/04 at 15:18 (155854)

I wish I had your confidence. The lack of ESWT info in the country is startling, pods look at you as if your mad, when its mentioned. TFM will probably be likewise and like has been said before on these boards, many masseurs have heard of TFM, whether they can successfully apply it is a different matter.

Thanks for your help...............its 9pm here and I'm off for a beer !

Re: Marty from SLC

Marty from SLC on 7/19/04 at 15:23 (155856)

I'm at pain level of 2 most of the day unless i'm on my feet for more the 15 min. and then it raises fast. I have had it 8 years now.

Marty

Re: John from MN

John from MN on 7/19/04 at 15:58 (155860)

I was in bad shape Pete but very motivate to find a solution.

Re: To both John's

john h on 7/19/04 at 18:21 (155883)

Pete: Ballet dancers are notorous for having PF. If you could get someone in the London Ballet to tell you who they use for foot injuries you would sure have a head start. Today in the U.S. the Privacy Act makes it almost impossible to find out information like this. I talked the New York Ballet and they would give out no information There is a Podiatrist in Chicago who did treat the Chicago Bear Team with ESWT not only the foot but other parts of the body. Are you aware one of the main uses of ESWT is for healing non union fractures? We on the board think of it mostly in terms of the feet but use in the shoulder and for healing non union fractures I believe far out weighs its use for PF. I think the two main machines used in the U.S. are German made if I am not mistaken (The Dornier and Sonocur). The Ossastron is U.S. is made by Healthtronics who's primary product is the Lithotriptor for crushing kidney stones. You might enjoey the Healthronics web site: http://www.healthtronics.com . Why don't you ask Dr. Sandel if he has the names of 10 patients he has cured who would not mind you calling them? This may not be possible because of the Privacy Act but if they agree maybe it can work. I have had many people call me about my surgery and ESWT and tell them just like it was. I do not advise them what to do as that is a personal decision that should be left to the patient and his Doctor.

Re: To both John's

Pauline on 7/19/04 at 18:33 (155887)

John,
How do you know that Ballet Dancers are notorous for having P.F? I would think just the opposite because they are totally stretched and have such strength in legs and feet. They cannot go on point until their muscles
have developed and reached the requirements to withstand the strain.

John tell us the truth were you a Ballet Dancer?????

Re: To both John's

john h on 7/19/04 at 21:46 (155893)

Pauline: I had read several articles about people subject to PF and ballet dancers were among the group as are basketball players, tennis players, hand ball players,etc. Activity with quick stop and go and laterial movement. I know a couple of NBA players and talk to them on a regular basis in off season and they tell me it is very common and many of the player wear orthosis. Just like us they look for the magic bullet but tend to play with pain when you make millions a year and your career is at stake. I could probably do a mean Romeo and Julliet pirouette.

Re: Ballet dancers

Pete on 7/20/04 at 14:55 (155927)

John, Thanks for your suggestion. I have in fact seen the masseur who treats the Birmingham Royal Ballet (well known in the Uk apparently!) She was great with my back but less so with my feet. She was less familiar with TFM techniques, then again it is probably called something else over here. Ballet dancers do occasionally get PF but their main problems are with toes and ankle ligaments and bones. I then saw the surgeon who looks after this ballet company and he had new MRI's done and a nerve test. Both were negative, but from what I have gleaned on here, that doesn't necessarily mean you don't have PF. My fascia hadn't thickened so he won't do surgery which I don't really want anyway. I'm an atypical sufferer.

I guess John's TFM success has spurred me on to have similar treatmet. DR S's explanations make sense to me. Guess I'll keep searching

Re: Ballet dancers

Pauline on 7/20/04 at 15:16 (155933)

Question:
The term atypical P.F. is often used on this site, but I'm not certain it's ever been defined other than where the pain is located.

What other symptoms are common to atypical suffers and is it possible that permanent tissue damage along with scare tissue is more the cause of what we are calling atypical P.F.?

Can anyone else describe anything beside the location of the pain that might be a common thread in this condition and would the number of steroid injections received early in treatment play a role in the quality of tissue that atypical P.F. sufferers have?

Re: Ballet dancers

Dorothy on 7/20/04 at 15:22 (155934)

Maybe those in the know can post all of the terms used that mean the same thing as TFM so that you, Pete, - and all of us - aren't limited by terminology.
For example, I think that Cross-Friction(al) Massage is an alternate term for TFM.
Anyone? Anyone? Terms for TFM? The definitions need to be identical or near-identical so first we need to define TFM....
Anyone? Anyone?
(I can't help quoting one of my favorite movies: Ferris Bueller's .....etc. Remember Ben Stein as the teacher: 'Anyone? Anyone?' )
However, I am serious about this topic that Pete has raised. Practitioners in the U.S. as well as the U.K. may use different terminology for TFM.

Re: Ballet dancers

Julie on 7/20/04 at 16:33 (155938)

Pete

If you search Google for 'Transverse Frictional Massage' you may find a few practitioners. I've just had a look, and found this one amongst the first ten results: http://www.rejuvin8.co.uk/sportsmassage.html . She's in Bolton, so not much good to you, but there are probably others.

Another possibility would be to locate and consult the chiropractor or osteopath or masseur who treats your nearest football team. He or she would probably have plenty of experience treating foot problems.
.

Re: Ballet dancers

john h on 7/20/04 at 18:51 (155941)

Pauline: I have read where some Doctors say PF is a catch all term. For many years I have contended it is a multitude of diseases resulting in pain in the feet. I think it is a term not unlike cancer which is a multitude of diseases. The meaning of fasica is clear enough and the dictionary defines itis as inflamation. Thus inflamation of the fascia. Some Doctors do not think what we refer to as inflamation of the fascia to be correct as they think the fascia in not inflamed but starved of blood supply. It is sort of in the eye of the beholder.

Re: Ballet dancers

john h on 7/20/04 at 18:56 (155942)

Pauline as the worst speller on the board I wish to commend you for new term which seems more appropriate than what you intended. You intended 'scar' tissue and spelled 'scare' tissue. I like scare tissue better . Seems more appropriate. Most medical literatue notes the most common area for PF pain is where the fascia attaches to the heel on the inside of the foot.This is immediately forward of the heelbone. This is the band of fascia from the great toe. This has always been where my primary pain is. However as you know people report pain in many places on the foot.

Re: Ballet dancers

john h on 7/20/04 at 19:04 (155943)

Pete: For three weeks now I have been having some success with Physical Therapy. I was ready to quit after two weeks because nothing was happening but now that I am into my 6th week I will say my feet are 50% better. It remains to be seen just how long this will last and if I continue to improve. The therapist showed me the exercises and I do them. The only thing he does is electrical stimulation and the other procedure with a machine ?? I do foot strengthing exercises and stretching. Nothing new and exotic. I did walk a fast 3.5 miles yesterday with no pain to speak of. Maybe the answer was right in front of me and I have been searhing for something out of the ordinary as a cure? We shall see.

Re: Ballet dancers

Pauline on 7/20/04 at 20:48 (155945)

Speaking about atypical P.F. did anyone have areas that felt thicker and moved like jello under the skin?

Re: Ballet dancers

Pete on 7/21/04 at 03:58 (155951)

Thanks, Julie there are many pmassuers listed on the internet. I have tried towo local ones without success. i think the issue is whether they have treated or no how to treat PF. Many think they can massage it away but the proof is in the pudding

Re: Ballet dancers

Pete on 7/21/04 at 04:01 (155952)

I've also tried the local footy team, my team in fact, Aston Villa. This was 2 years ago. The pod there was a waste since he gave me orthotics at £120 and then literally disappeared off the face of the earth. Thanks !!!

Just last night though I went to Perry Barr Stadium where local athletes of all qualities train and compete. Spoke to a physio and got the name of someone who maybe able to help. He is 15 miles away so worth a go. I will call him today.

Re: Ballet dancers

Pete on 7/21/04 at 04:03 (155953)

John, that is great after all your suffering. WALKING 3.5 miles,I can only dream of that. Good luck

Re: Ballet dancers

john h on 7/21/04 at 10:29 (155965)

The NFL and NBA players I know and converse with really do not seem to have any better answers than the rest of us. Before ESWT was FDA approved many went to Canada for ESWT and they have told me they do not usually want to let management know as it could effect their contract or playing time.

Re: Ballet dancers

john h on 7/21/04 at 10:34 (155966)

Pauline: We have had many post about concluding one has PF by measuring the thickness of the fascia. Since muscles change with age and we lose fat pad with age and have many other changes I have wondered if there is a standard for fascia thickness that could apply to all and could it really be used to diagnose PF. Certaily a 7' basketball player is going to have a thicker fasica than a 5' housewife. What can one really conclude from measuring the thickness? I have never read any scientific papers concerning this but perhaps I have not looked in the right place.

Re: Ballet dancers

john h on 7/21/04 at 10:55 (155970)

Pauline: I did some more research on plantar thickness and it appears there is a correlation between thickness and PF based on some scientific papers:

http://www.japmaonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/92/8/444

Re: Ballet dancers

Dorothy on 7/21/04 at 10:56 (155971)

You said: 'The NFL and NBA players I know and converse with really do not seem to have any better answers than the rest of us.'

Well, for better answers, you should talk to Lance Armstrong. He would have better answers.

Signed,
A Fan (well, ok, I have a little crush...) of Lance Armstrong - and of peanut butter

Re: Ballet dancers

john h on 7/21/04 at 17:35 (156009)

Lance rides and does not walk. So he wins 6 Tour De France-big deal. I saved on my auto insurance with Geico.

Re: Ballet dancers

Dorothy on 7/21/04 at 23:41 (156020)

Not funny. Not even a little bit funny. Do not joke about Lance. What Lance does cannot be called just 'riding'. What Lance does requires a brand new verb. Let's call it Lance-ing. No, wait - that brings to mind boils - ummmmmm, let's see - hmmmmmm.....I'll have to give it some thought. In the meantime, if I leave you alone for a while, I must have your word that you will not be making jokes about Lance. He IS the man.
You'd better hope that he doesn't take up ballet next, John H. - if he does, you'll be out of the corps de ballet there in Le Petit Roche before you can say plie and Lance'll be wearing your tutu and then you'll wish you had not mocked his greatness! :-)

Re: Ballet dancers

Pauline on 7/22/04 at 09:29 (156049)

Great response Dorothy. I can't wait for your new verb, but you're right one is needed. How does one work so hard on a bike and yet look soooooo
great immediately afterwards. Ya got to love the guy.

Re: Ballet dancers

john h on 7/22/04 at 12:36 (156057)

You must know that we actually have a large rock on the Arkansas River here in Little Rock known and marked as Le Petit Roche.

Re: Ballet dancers

Dorothy on 7/22/04 at 15:27 (156072)

No, John H, I didn't know that. But having some knowledge of French, it was easy to say 'little rock' in French - and that's what I did.

I've never been to Little Rock, but someday I plan to visit several places in Arkansas. I whitewater rafted on a river in Colorado that was a Class 5 and as I recall it ended in Arkansas. That's where I thought my cold, lifeless body would probably end up, too - I was scared out of my wits for the entire 'ride.'

Someday I want to go to Fayetteville, Eureka Springs, and other places.