marketingPosted by informing on 7/29/04 at 23:00 (156489)
An unheard of practitioner appears on this board offering a miraculous cure for plantar fasciitis. He is the only doctor in America who knows it. Three new posters appear to talk of their miracle cures.
It is an advertisement. There are no miracle cures for and no miracle doctors. There are no special techniques known only to one doctor or to a select few. There is no conspiracy of silence among practitioners to hide this latest 'cure.'
This site has seen miracles come and go. The last one was active release techniques or ART. What will the next one be?
The one thing that readers need to learn from this site is that there are a lot of different treatments which exist to address different aspects of the disease process. All of those treatments have a role in the treatment of plantar fasciitis. None of them is a miracle cure but have a specific function or niche when used in the right setting.
Evaluate the treatments which are tried and proven by thousands and do so critically. Understand what the functions or effects of those treatments are. A new treatment knwn to one or a few with 3 testimonials that pop up close together should make anyone suspicious. marketing can be blatant or subtle. This is marketing and be savvy and recognize it for what it is.
Best wishes in treating your foot problems.
Re: marketingDorothy on 7/29/04 at 23:23 (156491)
What exactly is being advertised? Most of us can't/won't go to Minnesota for weeks to see Dr. Sandell. What exactly is being advertised?
What does John of MN, Place, Goose or anyone else have to gain by reporting on their success or progress? How is that any different from reporting on success or progress with ESWT, with orthotics, with night splints, with whatever? What are you - and the other mindsets similar to yours - so worried about? That people here with PF or other problems might try something new that might or might not help them? Now that would be a new activity for people here, wouldn't it?
I evaluate how I feel about and how I react to various posts here - and there is a category of negativity, naysaying, 'be careful, be very, very careful...', something bad is going to happen, something bad might happen, something bad happened once; just because something good happened to someone or two or three, remember that something bad will probably happen to you.... that feels like a cold wet blanket. Yes, people need to be smart and evaluative and informed and act on their own behalf in their own self-interest, but good grief - WHAT IS BEING ADVERTISED??
Is John of MN a shill for Dr. Sandell? Is he standing outside the Dr. Sandell tent beckoning you all in so that Dr. Sandell can do something bad to you inside the tent? What could John of MN possibly gain by lying to you all? I'm not going to MN because I can't afford all that entails, but I applaud anyone who can and does - and who will then report back to us. Maybe someone will say, 'Hey, it's bunk! It's a carnival act! I'm not any better...' THEN will you be happy????
Re: Marketing? No: just over-enthusiasmJulie on 7/30/04 at 01:37 (156501)
'Informing's' post encapsulates all that has worried me since John from Minnesota first told us of his experience. It has always been clear to me that John's evangelistic 'this is the ONLY cure for PF' attitude would sooner or later bring on a vicious (or just cynical) backlash and that the baby might get thrown out with the bathwater.
I have never thought there was a scam going on. I am sure that John is honest, and that he has shared his experience honestly, and that Place and Goose are not 'plants', and that Dr Sandell is genuine. I am sure that an appropriately chosen and well practised massage technique can be effective in some, perhaps many, cases of PF. But the inflated claims made for Dr Sandell and for TFM have probably raised suspicions in some minds as well as false hopes in others.
So, while I don't think 'Informing' (whoever s/he is) is right about 'marketing', I do think s/he is right in saying 'there are a lot of different treatments which exist to address different aspects of the disease process. All of those treatments have a role in the treatment of plantar fasciitis. None of them is a miracle cure but have a specific function or niche when used in the right setting'.
A little more care and circumspection vis a vis the cure claims would have been more useful. I have a feeling Dr Sandell might agree.
Re: Basis of your claims "Informing" ??Pete on 7/30/04 at 04:43 (156502)
What I hate most about 'informing' is his unwillingness to identify him/herself. What has he got to hide ? What does he base his claims on ? Tell us more about this 'informing'
It goes without saying that we all have doubts about these miracle cures, although lets face it we only have 3 people here that Dr S has treated. Hardly a number which would make us all travel miles to visit him.
My only slight sceptism is when Dr S's website (albeit connected to a main chiropractor site) miraculously appears when a couple of weeks back he didn't have one. Coincidence ?
Re: Basis of your claims "Informing" ??Place on 7/30/04 at 08:39 (156511)
I think there is no coincidence in his web site, but due to his recent fame on the internet, this web page is great for informing all those who wish to check out his creditials. I would be concerned if it took the form of overt marketing himself.
Re: marketingModerator on 7/30/04 at 08:43 (156512)
If I am not mistaken, Scott allows people to post advertisements six times per year. Legitiment advertisers will be allowed, but obvious spam sites will be deleted.
Re: No differencePauline on 7/30/04 at 09:13 (156517)
Come on folks, this degradation of Dr. Sandell and his treatment is no different than what happens to any other doctor when his patient attempts to tell others of their success with a particular treatment.
How soon we forget the same questioning of Dr. Kiper's Silicon Orthotics.
It was like a feeding frenzy with the resident ESWT Pods carrying on conversations that could of and should of been done by personal email.
Was it for show? You bet ya, because this site is teritoral.
Dr. Z posts he wants to know if Dr. Sandell will allow him to observe his technique or perhaps learn it. We're talking professionals here folks----if one wants to observe or talk to the other they usually just call.
Didn't Dr. Z just come back from observing some electrical stuff from another Dr. in Florida? He made the arrangement and went. There was no big fan fare about it. Is Dr. Sandell any different? My guess only in the fact that he has no real intension of going.
Then there was Dr. Ed who claimed he couldn't get a response from the instructor for another type of massage treatment that some people said worked for them. Don't we all remember he wanted to enroll in a class but claimed he couldn't get a response to even take his check.
I believe Dorothy supplied Dr. Ed with several locations for him to enroll in classes, but did it happen---no. There was never any real interest in taking this class either.
I think Dorothy's post is a good one. Dr. Sandell's treatment may help people. Several of his patients posted about their results. Anyone wanting to see Dr. Sandell go do it any one who doubts his success stay home and any professional who wants to observe or learn is technique call him directly and make the arrangements.
P.F. is treated by many different methods. Success isn't owned by anyone.
Re: Marketing? No: just over-enthusiasmJohn H on 7/30/04 at 09:14 (156518)
I must admit Julie I was very interested when John form Mn first began to post about his experiences with TFM but as his post continued and I see claims of 99% cure rate, PF can be cured with 20 TFM treatments from Dr. Sandell, etc.,etc I became more and more cautious. I have never read more extravagant claims for a treatment since I came on this board. On top of this we have 3 people we know of apparrently undergoing treatment. Hardly enough to provide some compelling evidence. If this treatment really is what John proclaims, it will surely work its way into the mainstream of medical treatments. So far I have not seen any of the long time PF people who have posted on this board making the journey for this treatment. There is no place I would not travel to to cure my PF but I need some evidence beyond what has been posted here to make the journey. My concern is some new people who are arriving on the board may immediately think they have discovered the holy gral of PF cures and fly off to MN for several weeks. If they can afford it I say give it a go. If you have to borrow or take your family savings then look very carefully. I noticed on Dr. Sandell's web page there were many types of massage listed and there was no special mention made of TFM. He also employs a massage thearapist if I read the web page correctly. The few post Dr. Sandell has made seem intelligent and made sense and he did not make any wild claims. TFM has been around for some time and why now is it suddenly a cure for PF? There are only so many ways you can massage a foot. Call me a skeptic, call me overly cautious, or call me negative but having spent a lot of money and tried most known treatments for PF including traveling thousands of miles I need a lot more evidence before I turn loose of thousands of more dollars.
Re: To JohnPauline on 7/30/04 at 09:47 (156523)
I have been thinking about your condition and I'm beginning to think that you may not have P.F. anymore. I think that long term suffers begin with P.F. but that over time the tissue changes, maybe even degenerates and although still called P.F. because they don't know what is going on, that isn't the true condition anymore.
Additionally didn't you have surgery and at least 3 ESWT treatments?
Have you had a recent MRI or ultrasound to show the current tissue condition of your feet?
Re: No differenceJulie on 7/30/04 at 09:58 (156524)
Too right, Pauline. I have been patiently waiting for some weeks for our doctors to express some interest in this technique, which three people have now reported significantly good results from. People respect the doctors' views, and if they were to investigate TFM and share their thoughts on it, everyone would appreciate it. They surely know this, but they have refrained from even commenting on Dr Sandell's posts, which have been informative, intelligent, and illuminating.
But I hope Dr Z does visit and observe Dr Sandell and that he gives us a full report. Let's do him the justice to assume that he means it.
Re: marketingJulie on 7/30/04 at 10:02 (156525)
When John from MN first posted, Scott showed keen interest, and said that he hoped everyone was listening to John. I am sure he does not regard the testimonials to Dr Sandell's treatment as spam.
Re: chronic treatment?Marty from SLC on 7/30/04 at 10:06 (156526)
Degeneration of tissue,ligaments, etc., becoming mushy and scared, misaligned including bones from years of waking wrong etc. The question is how to trest this condition??
Re: No differencePauline on 7/30/04 at 10:15 (156528)
Justice will be served. As long as we are all alive we have time to wait for Dr. Z. observed report after his visit with Dr. Sandell.
I too found Dr. Sandell's posts informative, intelligent, and illuminating
and not advertising in any mannor.
Re: No differenceElyse B on 7/30/04 at 10:40 (156531)
I cannot agree with both you more. There is no secret here about Dr. Z. and Dr. Ed. Dr. Z. and Dr. Ed are really not interested in Dr. Sandell's treatment. I almost fell off my chair when Dr. Z or Dr. Ed (not sure which) had to 'ask' this Board if he could visit Dr. Sandell. My god, I just picked up the phone and called Dr. Sandell and spoke with him. How unprofessional. If the doctors on this board were really and truly interested they do not need anyone on this Board's permission to speak to dr. Sandell.
Podiatrists ARE NOT INTERESTED in TFM, graston or any kind of massage technique. I have seen 4 podiatrists and not a single one of them has even mentioned the word massage as a form of treatment let alone TFM. As for Dr. Sandell, more power to him and his work. I definitely believe in the validity of TFM and the fact that Dr. Sandell cares about treating his patients. I think there are a lot of people on this Board who are skeptical for real and genuine reasons. I don't blame him from leaving this site and he was doing us all a favor by coming on and posting because there was so much bashing of him. In my humble opinion, if I were closer to Minnesota and I were still in pain, I would be on the first plane out there. And believe me, I did look at air schedules.
Re: WHAT IS BEING ADVERTISED??BLT on 7/30/04 at 10:53 (156535)
Re: No differenceEd Davis, DPM on 7/30/04 at 10:56 (156537)
I use massage techniques all the time so the generalization that 'podiatrists are not interested' just does not hold up, at least in my area. There are numerous techniques out there and I cannot tell you which is the best. Proponents of different techniques tend to favor their techniques. I have been to masage therapists, referred people to massage therapists and chiropractors. If I want to visit someone, I would probably call them directly although, for the interest of readers on the board, I may 'announce' that on the board and it seemed that what Dr. Z was doing.
Re: Basis of your claims "Informing" ??Dorothy on 7/30/04 at 11:02 (156539)
That is a blatantly unfair criticism. That website 'appeared' as a courtesy to people who were asking where he was located, did he have a website, etc.! He did not supply it and I don't even think John of MN supplied the address. Some people did a search and found it - at least that's what I recall.
Imagine the converse: people ask how to find him and others refuse to give the website!
How many times have website addresses been given on heelspurs.com so that people can get to information they want or need??
Re: No differenceBLT on 7/30/04 at 11:03 (156540)
I asked before, I will try again What study or test has shown that the fascia is 'scar tissue' in pf patients? Second by rubbing it does the actual 'scar tissue' disolve and absorb into the body? Maybe it just feels good to have your heel rubbed. At least he is not doing fascia releases and just rubbing the foot.
Re: WHAT IS BEING ADVERTISED??Dorothy on 7/30/04 at 11:04 (156541)
Oh, give me a break!
Re: Basis of your claims "Informing" ??Elyse B on 7/30/04 at 11:10 (156544)
I was the one who supplied this board with Dr. Sandell's website. It was not a magic trick. It did not miraculously appear. It was out there for EVERYONE to see and read. I just searched the internet and found it which obviously Pete you failed to do.
Re: No differenceEd Davis, DPM on 7/30/04 at 11:11 (156545)
I will come back later for a longer answer. The fascia in a number of plantar fasciitis patients is not scar tissue but can contain scar tissue.
Those tend to be the patients who have had chronic inflammation for a long time. What are the effects of massage? Variable, but it is one way to attempt to reduce scar tissue. Do we need more research in this area- yes. The thing that I have tried to emphasize is that PF is a multifactorial issue that needs various things addressed -- biomechainics, gait, shoegear, tissue quality, inflammation... This is an important concept to recognize. I see problems with the two 'directions' of this discussion in that a practitoner or advisor preferably needs to inform that one modality does not clearly have an advantage over others and that the treatment will depend on the situation.
Re: To Johnjohn h on 7/30/04 at 11:16 (156548)
Pauline: I have long contended that what we all tend to lump into PF may be and probably is a multitude of diseases. Yes I had 4 ESWT treatments including one in St Louis. Over the years I have on occasion gone for a couple of weeks where my pain level was not much more than one and like many have reported for unknown reasons the pain level increases. It may be that when my feet get better I pickup my activity and do not recognize it? We have many people who have had painful feet (PF) for many years. I have the classic pain where PF occurs. Probably no less than 10 Doctor's say I have PF including the best Orthopedic Foot and Ankle Specialist (Fellows) in the surrounding area so what I am I left with. Do I have some sort of chronic tissue problem or nerve problem (both feet) that I will have forever? Could be but ever once in a while someone appears who has had PF for over 10 years and is cured. The one fact still is out there and that is in the majority of cases of what we call PF, the Doctor can not absolutely identify the 'pain generator'. This is much like low back pain when they diagnose that you have failed back surgery syndrome or many of the other diseases that attach the word syndrome.
Re: No differencePete on 7/30/04 at 11:17 (156549)
Totally agree Elyse. I've seen about 6 different pods and NONE have ever mentioned massage to me. They've all conveniently sold me £350 orthotics though. This is not to insult the Doc's on this site who provide a great service, but in the UK of the Pod's I've seen massage is no go.
Re: continuingEd Davis, DPM on 7/30/04 at 11:43 (156553)
Because treatment of PF is multifactorial as is true for a number of maladies, a lack of a cure may be due to one missing link in the treatment chain. Once that is found, the cure is complete. For some it is ESWT, for others it is orthotics, for others it is reduction of scar tissue. It is human nature to attribute the 'cure' to the treatment that completed the 'link' and that is okay, as long as the big picture is not forgotten.
Re: continuingEd Davis, DPM on 7/30/04 at 12:03 (156557)
How does one know, if a research project was set up as to whether a modality is increasing tissue quality of the fascia?
Biopsy is the most accurate but not practical. The best thing we have is use of sonography or MRI to measure thickeness of the fascia. We expect to see thinning of the fascia as tissue quality increases.
The entities are not independent but interdependent. In other words, tissue quality is being treated by ESWT, massage techniques but if they are applied while biomechanical deficits persist, they are less likely to be successful.
Re: To JohnMarty from SLC on 7/30/04 at 12:53 (156562)
I think you can put your pf in remission !! I think I can and I have had it bad, really bad for 8 years. I have hope and I know you do !!!
Re: To Johnjohn h on 7/30/04 at 15:23 (156586)
Marty: I doubt I will ever thow in the towell. I have changed my goals but not my desire. Christopher Reeves is still out there trying so I am still on a walk in the park compared to what he faces. He has perhaps made more of an impact on stem cell research than anyone living.
Re: marketingScott R on 7/31/04 at 08:48 (156640)
All i can say about the recent discussion is that the 4 people in question (John, goose, place, and Dr. Sandell) are not the same poster.
Re: marketingJanice N on 7/31/04 at 09:23 (156643)
I would pain my feet purple if it helped the PF.
If I could afford this dr and a trip I would do it too. There is nothing so bad about telling of the treatment this dr does. I am thrilled for those who are getting results. I can't stand and clap for these three persons and the dr as my cat is resting comfortably on my back while I am typing.
Thanks for drs everywhere who have an interest in our foot problems and in finding treatment for us.
It is no different than those who don't think ESWT is an effective treatment. It is your right not to have it if you don't. If you don't want to go to Dr S you don't have to.
I sure have learned to think before I open my lips to speak. A worthwhile lesson in life.
When and if I find something that gives me great relief I will be posting it and shouting it. And I will give the credit where credit is due.
Re: Marketing? No: just over-enthusiasm John HJanice N on 7/31/04 at 09:46 (156649)
I have seen and heard of many persons spending alot of money they didn't have for so called treatments.
It was for an illness that no treatment or cure was known. Or even what caused it in the first place.
I was involved in studies of experimental meds.
Persons suffering for so many yrs will do almost anything and take many risks. I heard several women tell me they bought so many herbs they hid them from their husbands and the bills for them. Sometimes you are just desperate in your search for help. Since 1991 I was told and so many others this one drug was the answer for this illness. And here it is 13 yrs later and this drug hasn't been approved for use. The few who were in clinical trials found once they were taken off it the symptoms returned. And one treatment
of the IV medications was thousands of dollars. I know that even if did get FDA approved nobody could afford it anyway. But for many yrs it did give myself and many others hope something had finally been found to help us. I wasn't part of tis study. So I do understand persons trying to find help of any kind but also how one can find themselves
exhausting thier bank accounts and still not better.
I would like to be able to try some things like massage and whirlpool and a few more conservitive things. But Medicare is getting harder to deal with these days to get services approved let alone what they dont think you need. Yet the cost of treating you with high priced medications is a real problem.
I know I am somewhat off topic. But when it comes to chronic pain it is all the same subject really. I do think if the three persons here could make it happen to go to MN and see this dr and it helped then and didn;t hurt then bravo. And I do believe it is not the only treatment but if it is one of them then great and I am happy for those who got help!!
Re: continuingBLT on 8/01/04 at 19:35 (156734)
Thanks for the explanation. It was appreciated