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Posted by John from MN on 7/30/04 at 10:44 (156534)

I think this site should be renamed heelspursskeptics.com.

Re: John

Pete on 7/30/04 at 11:13 (156546)


Take no notice. Please keep coming back on here to keep us posted. I for one appreciate the time taken by Goose, Place and of course yourself to post.

Re: John

John from MN on 7/30/04 at 11:21 (156551)

I understand why cured people leave this board and some doctors leave. You give everyone the answer to their question and some of them rip you apart for trying to help them. I am pretty thicked skinned like John h so it really does not bother me.

The difference between some of you and me is I am cured and you are not. I have tried all the treatments except release surgery so I have been around the block on this issue. I am a day-trader not a doctor. If you want me to help you guys/gals get better then ask intelligent questions and I will try to point you in the right direction. The proof it ous there that this method of treatment is very effective.

Re: John

Julie on 7/30/04 at 11:44 (156554)

John, I'm sorry, but it's your black-and-white over-enthusiasm that has triggered the scepticism you complain of. Most unfortunately it has polarised the discussion and discouraged Dr Sandell from continuing to post here. I am sure that was not your intention, but it has happened, and I think that is why it has happened.

I will say again what I have said (several times) already. I believe Dr Sandell's treatment cured you. I believe that TFM is an effective technique when skilfully applied to cases of PF for which it is appropriate, as it clearly was for yours. And I believe that Goose and Place have been helped too, and I am happy for all three of you.

But you simply cannot claim, day after day, that what cured you is going to cure everybody! It is simply not true. Dr Sandell has said it is not true. Dr Ed Davis has said it is not true. NOTHING can be the answer for everybody. If you really want to help people, and I believe you do, try and tone down your evangelism a little bit. It would be easier for people - even those you dismiss as negative sceptics - to listen, think about what you say, do their research, and make up their own minds.

I wish you continued good foot health.

Re: John

Ed Davis, DPM on 7/30/04 at 12:07 (156559)

I think you have read the situation correctly. Being on the boards for a number of years provides a perspective that is not generally seen by newer posters.

Re: John

john h on 7/30/04 at 12:14 (156560)

Actually probably 99.9% of cured PF patients never know this board exist and are cured by the standard treatments used by most Doctors. Most who post on this board are ones that are hard core and have tried most of the accepted treatments. Most including me are willing to try most anything approved or not approved. John from Mn suggested I might want to hang on to my pain and use it as a crutch. Well, John does not know me well enough to make that kind of statement. I like PF pain like I would like cancer. Before we suggest anyone on this board is using PF as a crutch we need to know them up close and up personal befor laying that kind of psychaitric diagnosis on them. .

Re: John

Ed Davis, DPM on 7/30/04 at 12:54 (156563)

I just got done seeing a patient for a neuroma who stated she cured her own PF with gel heel pads and only wanted the neuroma treated. The bottom line is that no one will convince her that gel heel pads are not a cure for PF. I would not call her typical but she represents the end of the spectrum that the infamous Frey study looked at a few years back that had supported the use of such 'devices.' The reason I am critical of the study is that a 'professional' (ie. someone we expect to know better) makes a statement about the efficacy of over the counter devices that is only pertinent in acute PF, a subset of the population. I agree with you that this board definitely does not represent a cross section of PF sufferers but includes either the tougher cases, those who waited too long for definitive treatment or those who have not had definitive treatment at all.

Re: This is the greatest website hands down !!!!!!!!!!

Marty from SLC on 7/30/04 at 14:09 (156573)

I remember back when I found this website like in 98 or 99 and how excited i was to find a site with really good information on it. I printed Scott's book out and read it and highlight stuff. I then made a list of things I needed to do. Stretches, weight loss, good shoes, etc. From that time many other sites have come along but really we owe allot to Scott for taking to the time to compile this website!, Not a easy task! We also should be grateful for the Doctors who take the time to care about us. Also to those who know allot and come here to help others. Let's not scare new comers off, that is the main reason i don't post .... don't want to steer others down a wrong road. Maybe others have noticed but many times the doctors post to correct a miss guided post and that is good. Anyway where would we be without this site ????????

Thank You Scott, Doctors and people,


Re: This is the greatest website hands down !!!!!!!!!!

john h on 7/30/04 at 14:42 (156578)

Good post Marty. Best information on the Web and with the added value of hope. Scott did a great job. He once posted a lot but now is a world traveler and we do not keep up with his exploits like we once did. I suspect he is cured or very close to it. Yes all the Doctors and foot specialist are to be commended for their continued post. That includes Dr. Sandell. Dr.Z and Ed have been here for the long haul. Mr. Wheelock, Bayshore, and ohers provided some great information. The guy who did ESWT from Australia was a great source of information and statistics. He was really clear on the science of ESWT and traveled in much of southeast asia giving treatments under the supervision of a Doctor. As I recall using the latest equipment an ESWT treatment was less than $100. Almost made it worth while to travel to Australia on a vacation and have a treatment, We had some post from Dr.Rompe a world famous ESWT expert from Europe and I have communicated with a well known Dr. in South Africa. Where else but on Heelspurs.Great job ScottR. Do you still live in that same love nest? Did you ever make your bed? Are you still seeing Stephanie and where did she go? Besides all this I have made some special frieds (includes you Pauline and Dorothy). Few people in my cicrle of friends at home know I have PF. I do not mention it. Perhaps only my family and Doctors know of my condition except you on the board. People of my generation tend to keep such things personal and actually view them as a personal weakness. Intellectually I know this is wrong but in my heart that is the age I come from. The board allowed me to share my experiences which is a godsend.

Re: John

john h on 7/30/04 at 15:00 (156583)

Ed as you know one of the big problems in evaluating PF cures we can never be sure what it was that cured the problem. Sometimes PF just goes away on its own. We seldon treat PF in a vacume and use multiple treatments so if ou are cured you really do not know why. You can speculate. I poste an excellent site recently where the researchers did a lot of gross anatomy on the pf tissue. It was most enlighting. Either Dorothy or Paline apparently keeps a notebook of some of these good sites and articles. As you noted the study showed healthy tissue tended to be thinner and white in color and unhealthy tissue tended to be thicker and darker. They had some good MRI pictures and had enough patients and biopies to medically speak with some authority. Ir ia nixw to know that there is some valid scientific research going on with this subject. I have spent some hours with Dr. Z discussing some articles in some of his libraby manuals on PF and ESWT. Some still discount ESWT as a viable treatment but even though it has not cured my PF I think it is a great alternative with some science behind it. Without question it helps non union fractures and appears to help tennis elbow. Studies show it helps PF in some cases. I think since it is hard to stay off your feet that your foot never really gets a good chance to be cured. I know I was back at work the next day afer ESWT and spent an entire day in airports immediaely afer treatment. After John from Mn post I intervied about 5 therapist about doing TFM. The one I finally chose turned out to really do the more conventionl PF treatments. So many of these people tell you what you want to hear so you never know what you will get. I do certainly remember the very very vigorus massage technique I received a few years ago. I think she was a relfexologist. I had a major setback and have been wary of a very strong maassage since then. I have never hear any criticism of Yoga and still remains on my list of things to do as it can help the mind body connection as well as do thing that might improve your PF. This is going to take a long term commentment and most of us are looking for a magic bullet.

Re: PS

Julie on 7/30/04 at 15:24 (156587)

You say 'the difference between some of you and me is I am cured and you are not'. The tone of that, and of the rest of your post, is so belligerent that I almost did not respond, but I did, and now, to for the record, I should add to my earlier post that I too am 'cured' (though I don't like that word). I was helped by an excellent podiatrist who did a thorough examination including an evaluation of my biomechanics and who casted and prescribed a pair of well-constructed orthotics that addressed the cause of my PF (over-pronation). I also followed a handful of other conservative treatments that included taping, rest, and regular practice of yoga exercises to strengthen the intrinsic muscles of the feet and improve circulation and energy flow. This was four years ago. It took five months. I have had no trouble since. My activities have since included lots of hill-walking on very rough terrain, going barefoot when I have to (i.e. when I am teaching my yoga classes) and everything I did pre-PF.

My treatment programme did not include TFM or any other form of massage, though I would certainly have been receptive to it had it been offered.

So: not all podiatrists are as hide-bound as you think, and not all conservative treatments are as useless as you believe. Most cases of PF, as others have pointed out, resolve with correctly prescribed and consistently followed conservative treatment. The recalcitrant cases are certainly something else again, and I am sure that TFM is one of the things (but NOT the only thing) that can help in some of those cases.

Re: This is the greatest website hands down !!!!!!!!!!

Marty from SLC on 7/30/04 at 15:45 (156593)


Re: John

Suzanne D. on 7/30/04 at 18:53 (156606)

Julie, I agree with your appraisal of the situation. I have followed most of the posts during the past weeks concerning this topic although I have not posted about it until tonight. I have been interested in learning about TFM and have hoped it would help many people. However, I do not think it is the only thing that 'cures' plantar fasciitis as I am almost 'cured' and have not had the treatments.

I do not think healthy debate or questioning a claim is necessarily negative and should not be taken as such. It is smart to think and question and research. I even try to teach my first graders this! I want them to know how to find the answers to questions so that they will be able to intelligently make decisions in the future.

I have been quite interested in every treatment for PF which I have read about on this site during the past three years. I did not use all of the options I read about, but I tried many and found several which helped me. Ultimately, we all have to choose what we feel will help and which we are able to pursue.

I wish for everyone improved health and thank you each for how you have enriched my life over the past three years!

Suzanne :)

Re: to John H.

Suzanne D. on 7/30/04 at 18:59 (156608)

John, for some time I felt I would like to respond to the suggestion made here that you are negative or that you are somehow attached to your pain. I was afraid that by doing so, I might stir up something on the boards, so I refrained. But now I feel an opening with this discussion, so I would like to say that I feel those claims are unfair.

You have, through the three years I have read and posted here, been quite positive in your willingness to try new things and supremely generous in sending shoes and other aids which you could not use to others, free of charge. I would certainly never think of you as negative.

As to wanting to hold onto your pain, that seemed even more preposterous and somehow hurtful. You have gone to great lengths to rid yourself of pain. Anyone who has read much of what you have written realizes that.

Well, you did not need me to come forth and 'take up for you', but I felt it needed to be done, so I have written this.

Take care,
Suzanne :)

Re: John

Ed Davis, DPM on 7/30/04 at 19:40 (156620)

People have differing views on how much 'proof' or 'science' must be behind a treatment. Some are hard core -- double blind studies in a peer reviewed journal. The other end of the spectrum says try anything that sounds good. There is, like with everything, a reasonable middle ground.
The problem with giving 'everything' a try is that it can be very expensive and many don't have the money nor insurance to try lots of things. That means that some weaning down of options needs to be done but also an effort to focus treatment to obtain the maximum effect. I don't treat every PF patient identically because an exam will reveal that there are different underlying causes involved. Some have tight gastrosoleus/achilles, subtalar joint overpronators, midtarsal joint oversupinators and so on. Our treatment choices as practitioners are tempered by studies, our experience in treating patients and probably most importantly, the collective experiences of thousands of practitioners. When we go to a meeting, we go to listen to the lectures but, often, more importantly to compare notes with other practitioners to understand what that collective experience is.

Another way to look at things is if an entity, say an insurance company, stated they were going to pay a specific dollar amount for every person with the diagnosis of plantar fasciitis (now include in that a penalty for every day lost from work for the patient), how would one, as a practitioner, render or allocate treatment? One would need to diagnose carefully and treat and measure results based on a flexible plan of action. PF surgery may be rare under such circumstances. Orthotics (carefully crafted ones) and ESWT would be high on the list particularly if governmental impediments to cost mdoeration were removed.

Re: to John H.

Julie on 7/31/04 at 02:51 (156633)

Amen to that, Suzanne! Thank you: it needed saying.


Re: This is the greatest website hands down !!!!!!!!!!

Janice N on 7/31/04 at 08:46 (156639)

The persons who post on this board have been a lifesaver for me! I didn't know much about PF and never heard of ESWT. I would have given into surgery had I not found this site. There are differences of opinions and certainly different personalities. That is to be expected. We are here to learn and share what are own experiences are. And to be supportive.
I thank all of you. The docs who take their time to respond to post over and over again. The sufferers of all kinds of foot problems and those who found relief from one source or another. You know the old saying. It doesn't matter how you get up to the top of the mountain as long as you get there. There is nothing
posted here I wouldn't be willing to try. For me though it is very limited resources. But I still like to hear what others have tried and have gotten good results. I went to a professionally run support group
a few yrs back for a chronic disease. And I always liked what the leader had to say. The first rule was to say what worked for yourself and not what someone else should do. Later on I attended a similar type group led by a fellow patient. The first thing that
bothered me was she slammed the dr I went to and then without knowing me for five minutes made suggestions of where I should go to a dr and that I should go back to work and do part time private duty nursing.
I like the first group much better and attended it as long as it was there. I think if a question is asked then it is great to answer it. But in a way that says this worked for me. Or you might want to try this.
Being in pain can sure get a person stirred up. And having foot pain for months and years you are eager to help and to get answer for yourself.
I haven't found another site who could compare to this one. I think we all mean well and have the best intentions. Where I live I have said all week it is the heat making everyone cranky including myself. hahahaha This is a great bunch of persons at heelspur.com. Janice

Re: plantar fasciitis

Kerry.E. on 8/07/04 at 17:31 (157169)

I'm doing a report on nursing and plantar fasciitis. I would like to know personal recovery times for this condition. It is a common foot problem for nurses and I would like to know their total recovery time. So please all nurses who have suffered from this condition please let me know.


Re: plantar fasciitis

Julie on 8/08/04 at 01:10 (157189)


This is an interesting and important topic, but many who might be able to help you will not see your question because you have posted it at the end of a 'dead' thread. May I suggest that you post it again, starting a new thread?

The way to do this is to go to the home page, click on Message Boards, and click on 'Post a Message'. A blank will come up, and you'll be asked to choose a category for your message. Choose 'Treatments/Symptoms/Products' or 'Ask the Foot Doctors' or - preferably - both.

In my four years here we've had many nurses who have developed PF - it's an ailment that afflicts lots of people with occupations that require them to be on their feet most of the time. Your question about recovery time is one of those 'how long is a piece of string' questions. Recovery depends on lots of things, but dealing with the condition quickly is probably the most important. Unfortunately many people ignore the pain and don't seek help until their pain becomes unbearable, thinking it's 'just' sore feet. Age of onset is also a factor (younger tissues heal quicker) and there are many others: biomechanical issues and choice of footgear amongst them. Most will find that a temporary change to sit-down duties is helpful - it's hard to heal an injury when it's being constantly aggravated by what caused it.

I hope you'll get input from both nurses and doctors.

Re: plantar fasciitis

john h on 8/09/04 at 08:51 (157247)

Kerry: Recovery time varies from person to person. National stats indicate that 90% of people will be cured with conservative measures in around 3-5 months according to several reports. The remaining 10 percent become chronic and around 7% will be cured in over a year. The remaining 3% are really hard core and we have had people on the board who have had PF for over 20 years. We also have had people on the board who have been cured after many years. I read that anywhere from 3 million to 6 million new cases are reported each year. Many of the posters on this board are in the 3% group.