Home The Book Dr Articles Products Message Boards Journal Articles Search Our Surveys Surgery ESWT Dr Messages Find Good Drs video


Posted by Dorothy on 7/30/04 at 11:36 (156552)

I find my level of irritation has been rising around this discussion of Dr. Sandell's treatments and the favorable reports from some posters.

When I first discovered this website, like many people, I just read here for a long time before making my first post - anywhere, on any message board. Sometime early on, I remember thinking, and using, the phrase 'attached to your pain', although I don't remember the context.
Not too long ago, I saw a book title, Addicted to Unhappiness.

Both of those phrases come to mind as I think about the 'sour' reaction, the negative, the suspicious, the warning, the finger-wagging reactions to John of MN, the favorable comments from those who have written here about Dr. Sandell, etc.

As I have said several times, I have no direct knowledge of anything about Dr. Sandell - but, for cryin' out loud: the only thing that has been said of him is that he has helped - i.e. done good for - some people here. Somebody, please, tell me what in the - world - is wrong with that??

May I suggest that 1. Too many people here are 'attached to their pain' or 'addicted to unhappiness' and/or 2. So fearful of being disappointed that they ensure that they cannot be disappointed by not opening their minds to possibility and/or 3. Cannot happily stand to see someone else's happiness or relief from misery (Schadenfreude)

If sharing information and referrals and recommendations and reports of outcomes are not at the heart and soul of being part of heelspurs, then what is it for?? As I have said several times: no one is forcing anyone to go to Dr. Sandell or to Dr. Z or to Dr. Ed or to Dr. Wander or to Richard C.Ped or to buy FootTrainers or to buy New Balance - or anything else!! We've had lots of people here report - happily and/or angrily - about their experiences with their doctors, including names and addresses. Many times. I don't recall all of this 'uh-uh-uh/no-no-no' reaction then.

I am not suggesting that there should be blind, naive or mindless herd behavior with unquestioning acceptance of every new thing that gets posted here. Not at all. But the opposite of that can be to slam doors on new ideas.

Maybe it's the enthusiasm of John of MN that got people worried. And, for all I know that worry is reasonable, but it doesn't seem like it to me. Even if it is his enthusiasm that causes wariness in readers here, can you not at least entertain the possibility that he is enthusiastic because he feels well again?? It is possible, is it not, that he wants to share with you his experience to help you, rather than to 'lure' you to some disaster?

Someone - a 'BLT' I think - answered me by saying that what was being advertised is a 'service'. My point in asking that question was to point out that nothing was being advertised anymore than anything else is being advertised on heelspurs - including heelspurs itself - and that 'advertising' something does not necessarily mean it is a bad thing.

Re: Questions

john h on 7/30/04 at 12:06 (156558)

Pauline I become concerned when I see John from Mn put out what I think statements that are not supported by the facts such as (1) 99% cure rate (2) You cannot see the fascia on an MRI and other proclomations. When one chooses to make such statements they become fair target for criticism. If my memory is not totally gone I think you came down on Dr Z with a sledge hammer about ESWT. Why would you not question a 99% cure rate for PF? I am one to try anything and would certainly try Dr. Sandell if he was in my area. I would not however go on to the board with the tenacity of John from Mn even if Dr. Sandell cured me because by now I clearly believe there is no one cure for PF and I would not want to give false hope or make readers think what worked for me would work for them. John would be more effective if he just laid the facts of his treatment out there for us all to evaluate and not come on like Elmer Gantry. I do not think Dr. Sandell has come on this strong in hiw own postings and I would be supprised if he would 'guarantee' a cure even if he selected you as a patient. Six months from now this will be a dead topic unless Moses brings down a new proclamation from the mountain top. Can anyone even recount all the cures we have seen posted on this board.

Re: Questions

Pauline on 7/30/04 at 14:20 (156574)

I think it was already pointed out by Dr. Sandell himself in his own post that there was no guaranteed cures. I never saw the 99% cure post that you are referring to but certainly Dr. Sandell's post would have cancelled John's statement.

As far as Dr. Z is concerned, I think you will find that it was Elliott that pointed out to Dr. Z that the figures he was using on his web site were incorrect and they should be changed. Eventually this was done but it took Elliott's pressure to have them removed.

You trid Dr. Z and he wasn't in your area and I think you were also considering seeing someone else for more ESWT or that electro stuff as well. Why not try Dr. Sandell? What is the most that you could lose?

I think what your saying is the problem you have right now isn't serious enough. We seek out who ever and what ever treatment is needed in times of true crisis no matter where they are and what they are serving.

Re: Questions

Ed Davis, DPM on 7/30/04 at 14:48 (156579)

I must have missed it but I think that if Dr. Sandell came onto the boards directly speaking about his philosophies and treatments, that would lay a lot of the misunderstandings to rest. I can understand the time factor and the concern of some professionals to get into debates but there is nothing like first hand information. He does have to realize that we are a very diverse group including many patients who have been through a lot so skepticism is to be expected. Healthy skepticism is fine as long as it is expressed respectfully. To this point, we have 'debated' an issue with what I would consider to be way too little information.

Re: Questions

Julie on 7/30/04 at 15:04 (156584)

Ed, you did miss two posts by Dr Sandell. I've searched and can only find one. I'll copy it here. The one that has disappeared into the archive was, as I remember, even more informative. In that one he dissociated himself from the'99% cure' claim - as one would expect from a professional practitioner.

It is a great shame that he has decided not to engage further with heelspurs. As I told him, I do understand why, but I think he would have had a great deal to offer.

Here is the post I was able to find:

Re: Dr Sandell and his methods, your thoughts View Thread
Posted by Dr. Sandell on 6/29/04 at 19:17
Maybe you might find it helpful if you knew a little about myself. As you know, I have a private practice in Minnesota where I specialize in the treatment of chronic pain and sports injuries. I have been in private practice for about 1 year and I have been practicing for about 2 12 years. I went to undergraduate school at the University of Minnesota Duluth and received Bachelor's degrees in Exercise Physiology and Human Biology. I went to chiropractic school at Northwestern Health Sciences University in Minnesota where I studied under Dr. Hills, PT, DC, who in addition to a chiropractic physician is also a licensed physical therapist. In addition to a chiropractic physician, I am also a certified chiropractic sports physician, certified athletic trainer, certified strength and conditioning specialist and I am currently finishing my diplomate in sports medicine. I have attained over 1500 hours of post-doctoral studies in the most recent advancements in sports medicine and rehabilitation. What does this mean? I have a unique and diverse education which allows me to manage injuries through a multidisciplinary approach. A multidisciplinary approach means that the patient is managed through combining several different perspectives and philosophies, and using the most effective procedures. I utilize many forms of soft tissue mobilization (i.e. transverse friction massage, myofascial release, Graston, ART ect.), neurofascial mobilization, proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation (PNF) stretching, range of motion and strengthening exercises, joint manipulation and mobilization, modalities of ultrasound, ice, heat and electric muscle stimulation, rehabilitative exercise, cardiovascular exercise and instruction in independent home care programs. Understanding how the different tissues and systems are affected by an injury, and more importantly how to rehabilitate these areas, are really the key. This information is only to answer some questions that you might have. I do not have all of the answers nor do I portray that I do. My caring nature is what motivates me to continue learning, with only hopes of providing better care for my patients.

Re: Questions

john h on 7/30/04 at 15:19 (156585)

Pauline: John from Mn recently posted that it would take about 20 treatments from Dr. Sandell to cure PF. He also indicated it would take some (?) thousands of dollars for the treatments. So figure 20 days in MN with hotel rooms and food,car and what ever thousand of dollars Dr Sandell migh charge and you are into major dollars. Aside from this I would lose my pay from my job. Clearly I need more evidence than John, Place, and Goose to make such a trip. Why do you not make this trip in my place. So far we have no one but Goose,Place, and John and I do not know enough about their history to see if they are in the same catagory as many of us. There was definitely a quote of a 99% cure rate as I posted a comment on it.Later it was posted That Dr Sandell only accepts certain patients and only recently were we told it would take 20 treatments for a cure. Depending on your selecion criteria you may have a high cure rate. What is the selection criteria. Simply put I think we all need more information. I do not doubt that John from Mn, Place and Goose are doing well. All these people are very new to the board and we really do not yet have a sense of who they are. For those of us who have been here for years I think we have a good sense of who they are nd can read between the line on their post. I would like for Goose,Place and John form Mn to post their pictures so at least we have a starting point. If one of them is 18 years old and runs marathons then he/she is not in my league. If they have had the disease for 5 months then their results may not apply to some of us who have had the problem for 5-10 years. We are simply without enough facts to make rational decisions. Dr.Sandell posting might be very helpful. Dr. Ed and Dr Z have taken all types of criticism over the years but have stood the test of time and are sitll here. Any medical technique should stand up to criticism and must if it is to be accepted as a medical protocol for the treatment of a disease. If a Doctor is offended by question or criticism then there is reason to be concerned.

Re: Questions

Pauline on 7/30/04 at 15:26 (156588)

Why such anger????

Re: Questions

Julie on 7/30/04 at 15:35 (156589)


Correction: the 99% cure rate was a claim made by John from Mn. Dr Sandell dissociated himself from it in a post that has now disappeared into the archive, but I remember it very well.

I am not urging you to take off for Minneapolis tomorrow morning, but if you did, and Dr Sandell examined you, I would be willing to bet that he would give you an honest appraisal of your feet and of the suitability of his treatment and would tell you if he did not think he could treat you successfully. The investment of thousands of dollars would only arise if on examination he was reasonably sure that his treatment would work for you.

At a guess, I would imagine that it's the longer term, recalcitrant cases (i.e. the ones that have developed a lot of scar tissue) that are probably most likely to benefit from the treatment - so maybe you should have a go!

Re: Questions

Pauline on 7/30/04 at 15:41 (156590)

Dr. Ed,
I personally disagree with you. I think Dr. Sandell has said enough and posted his email address for anyone to contact him. He's a professional, he provides medical treatment and others here have posted that he does a good job at treating P.F. and would recommend his treatment.

If someone is interested they should contact Dr. Sandell directly. No farther discussion on his treatment methods will be serviced well in this area other than to try to continue to discredit the man live should we say.

I don't think there has been any real debate here, however, I do think there has been a good attempt to discredit John from MN, Place, Goose and Dr. Sandell without sound material.

Anyone really interested in his philosophies on treatment especially a professional like yourself or Dr. Z should make direct contact.

Re: Questions

Ed Davis, DPM on 7/30/04 at 15:43 (156591)

Thank you. It appears that he uses several different massage techniques as opposed to one which was the impression I was getting from some of the posts. It would have been good if he was able to follow through on this issue. I think our understanding got a bit sidetracked.... Perhaps he will reconsider and return with more information.

Re: here's another of dr sandell's posts

Marty from SLC on 7/30/04 at 16:44 (156601)

He posted this back on 6-14-04 I think.

'Good afternoon friends! I hope that you have had the opportunity to become familiar with the soft tissues response to injury. Before I begin to discuss the pathogenesis of plantar fasciitis, I want to make it clear that this is for information purposes only and is not intended for diagnosis, self treatment, or to replace your current medical therapy. I am only offering you scientific information and my humble opinion. Additionally, I will try to put things into layman's terms so that it will be easier to understand and please forgive any details that may be missed. I will also try to generalize, using the 'most common scenarios to address the majority of you. I do understand that everyone's situation is unique and that can only be properly addressed with a thorough history and examination. The material presented goes much farther into depth and cannot be fully addressed, especially on my only day off! With that being said, I would like to mention that I am more than happy to take this opportunity to offer you insight and help answer some questions that you may have, if only to help you seek an alternative treatment for your condition. I specialize in the treatment of chronic pain, and so I understand the frustrations and despair that you experience. I truly empathize with patients such as yourself and I really wish you all the best of luck.

Overuse injuries frequently occur when an athlete changes exercise patterns or rapidly increases the amount or intensity of exercise. Without sufficient time for recovery, repetitive micro-trauma leads to inflammation and local tissue damage in the form of cellular and extracellular degeneration. Such degeneration can lead to chronic pain or sudden injury. An increase in injury risk with lighter loading is explicable in terms of decreased tensile strength of over-used tissues. Plantar fasciitis occurs when there are small tears in the plantar fascia due to repetitive micro-trauma that cause the ligament to become inflamed. The tears in the plantar fascia initiate an orderly sequence of events i.e. inflammatory phase; fibroblastic / proliferative phase; and remodeling / maturation phase. Below is a brief overview:

Inflammation results from changes in the blood flow caused by clotting and the release of certain substances from the injured tissue. Swelling is a necessary part of this phase, but it must not be too great. The inflammatory phase is a relatively uncontrolled process and the body tends to produce a greater response than necessary, and that is why it is recommended to use ice, compression, nsaids (anti-inflammatory drugs) to control this process. However it is necessary for proper healing to begin. All contamination must be removed, through the process of phagocytosis, in which cells known as phagocytes consume particles of debris around the site of injury. In addition, a new blood supply must be provided through neovascularization, the formation of new blood vessels.

The fibroblastic / proliferative phase of healing is the rebuilding phase and this is when scar tissue is layed down. The fibroblastic proliferation is responsible for the repair and regeneration of collagen. The scar tissue produced initially is 'immature as the bonds holding them together are weak and easily disrupted.

The remodeling / maturation phase of healing is when collagen maturation and final scar tissue formation begins. At this point, the soft tissue injury needs to be strengthened and the normal function returned. The balance of newly formed scar tissue with the destruction of the old, assists in the final physical characteristics of the scar, as do certain soft tissue manipulative procedures performed on the scar. The collagen that has been deposited undergoes reorganization to a stronger type of collagen and the tissue usually becomes somewhat more elastic. The Davis Law states that soft tissues heal along the lines in which they are stressed. Immobilization prevents the formation of strong scar tissue by avoiding the strains leading to proper orientation of the fibrous tissue.

The above response to a soft tissue injury has been accepted as the process at which all tissues heal. However, when an injury is due to a non-traumatic, chronic overuse causation, the typical inflammatory process does not occur. Instead a non-inflammatory process occurs in which there is a degradation of the tissue. This tissue becomes less elastic, weaker, and more prone toward exacerbations with use or stress resulting in chronic pain and disability. How many of you have tried walking or running again because you were asymptomatic, only to experience an exacerbation of your foot pain later?

Healthy tissues fibers are organized with the fibers orientated parallel to each other and are extensible; this gives it function and strength. Scar tissue is fibrotic, dense, irregular, inflexible and weak. As scar tissue matures, it contracts and becomes even less flexible. Scar tissue is necessary however to repair the injured tissues in our body and is not considered unhealthy. When the scar tissue has healed properly, with function and strength, I use the term 'functional scar . I use the term 'pathologic scar when the tissue has not healed properly and is a cause for the exacerbations with use or stress resulting in chronic pain and disability. I believe that these are terms (functional / pathologic) that I only use, however the descriptions of the types of scar are accurate.

The main theory as to why transverse friction massage (cross-fiber massage, deep transverse friction massage) works has been based on its effect on scar tissue. TFM is particularly effective at breaking down excessive scar tissue lesions or adhesions present and in the process of formation. Reduction in these adhesions helps to restore the broadening of tissue required for normal movement. It also induces traumatic hyperemia, or increased local blood supply to the injured tissue. Increased blood supply reduces pain to an injury and facilitates healing. Gentle transverse friction, applied in the early inflammatory phase enhances the mobilization of tissue fluid and therefore increases the rate of healing. The reason why I wanted to make the above a point, was because it is my opinion that this type of procedure should only be performed by an experienced practitioner due to the possible adverse side affects, early stages of an injury require less pressure and treatment time (I believe that the power that can do good, can also do harm). Recent studies using light microscopy, electron microscopy and immunoelectron microscopy have shown that after friction massage there is fibroblastic proliferation and realignment of collagen fibers. The micro-injury causes microvascular trauma and capillary hemorrhage, resulting in a localized inflammatory response which serves as the stimulus for the body's healing cascade and immune/reparative system. This means that the practitioner can influence the orientation at which the new scar tissue is laid down and facilitate healing. It is important to note that TFM does not get rid of the scar tissue it only influences the formation of a 'functional scar . TFM also stimulates fibroblastic proliferation (responsible for the repair and regeneration of collagen). Studies have demonstrated that the fibroblastic proliferation was directly dependent upon the magnitude of the applied pressure by the practitioner. I would also like to mention that this type of procedure is very specific. The scar tissue formed on your plantar fascia does not run the length of the tissue. I am sure that most of you have found 'hard spots on your foot (most commonly by the heel, but not always) and this is commonly the scar tissue. If the practitioner working on scar tissue on your feet is off by ¼ of an inch, they might as well be working on your shoulder. This is yet another reason that this procedure should be done by an experienced practitioner. So in layman's terms, TFM will affect the soft tissue by:
1. Break up adhesions and cross-linkages
2. Realign the fibers
3. Repair and regenerate the fibers
4. Restore extensibility to the tissue

So what about the contractures and shortening that occurs with chronic 'pathologic scar tissue ?

I utilize a different type of soft tissue mobilization technique to address the above phenomenon that occurs with chronic scar tissue. I use a technique familiar to Graston or myofascial release. Well which one is it? All of you should know that in our profession someone will use a technique that has been around for a century and slightly modify it. By either by performing that technique with a tool or a slightly different technique and call it by another name, claiming a new innovation that will cure everyone of their plantar fasciitis! I even have a hard time keeping up with all of the different names of techniques out there, but I can understand what they are trying to accomplish and take it at face value. I am very critical as to 'new treatment and use only the scientific research to dictate what type of treatment I perform. Anyways, these techniques can be utilized to lengthen the contracted tissue.

So what about making the scar tissue stronger?

We have already made the scar tissue stronger by restoring the function and extensibility of the tissue but we are missing one final aspect. During the maturation phase, scar tissue is re-shaped and strengthened by the internal and external mechanical stress applied and is the main stimulus for remodeling weak scar tissue with fibers oriented in all directions and through several planes into linearly re-arranged bundles. At the heart of functional rehabilitation are Davis' Law and Wolf's Laws, which state that soft tissue and bone heal along the lines in which they are stressed. What does this mean? It simply means that tissues will adapt to the forces placed upon them and remodel themselves to become stronger in relation to those imposed forces. Functional rehabilitation includes muscle stretching, gait training, muscle strengthening and neuromuscular re-coordination (nerves, muscles and joints working together in synchrony). Rehabilitation also involves exercise movements to regain joint proprioception. Impaired joint 'position sense' is overlooked in many rehabilitation programs and may be a major risk factor for recurrent injuries after the muscles and ligaments have been restored. Restoring proprioception after injury allows the body to maintain stability and orientation during static and dynamic activities. The development of a rehabilitation program needs to be a methodical and should be supervised by an experienced practitioner. Patient goals must be addressed early so that a progressive rehabilitation program can be developed. Does this mean walking or even running? Absolutely! I cannot say with absolute certainty that this is a possibility for every patient. There are far too many variables that can affect the patients' prognosis and an experienced practitioner should be able to recognize such variables.

Again, the depth as to which I can go into this material is far too extensive and I have not even covered every aspect. It has to be understood that what works for one patient, may not work for another. Again, working with chronic pain patients I understand this very clearly. What does it mean to specialize treating this patient population? It means that I manage only the most difficult cases. I see the patients where other treatment protocols have failed or come up short. This means that I am forced to 'think outside of the box . I wipe the slate clean with every patient and develop a very individualized treatment program, meaning that I do not use protocols to treat the patient for their condition. I do not discredit the other practitioners that these patients have sought treatment from because I do not see the patients in which they have resolved their condition. I think that it is important as all health care practitioners to recognize that we do not have all of the answers and there are other treatment options available to the patients. After all we all have the same goal, which is to provide the patient with a solution to their problem. I wish you all the best of luck my friends and thank you for your time.'

Re: here's another of dr sandell's posts

john h on 7/30/04 at 19:13 (156612)

I find no problems with Dr. Sndell's post. It makes sense even to a non scientifically trained person. My problem comes with the evangelical approach and claims made by John from Mn. The fact that he is cured or near cured speaks for itself and he should leave it at that. We would all be interested in the details of his treatment; how often, how was it different, what did it cost. how long did it take. how long did he have PF,etc etc. With these details and his results we now have information to help us make a decision.

Re: Questions

Dr. Z on 7/30/04 at 19:21 (156615)


If wasn't the figures ( numbers) that were ever questioned. It was the comparison between the ossatron and the dornier FDA trial after one year. The numbers were always correct and are in fact the numberes printed in the most recent International Foot and Ankle Journal.

Re: Questions

john h on 7/30/04 at 19:28 (156616)

Julie I realized it was john from Mn who posted the 99% claim and not Dr. Sandell but I need a lot more info than just the three patients who are relatively new to the board have posted to invest perhaps $10,000 after all is said and done. I once advised Bayshore I would pay them $10,000 if they cured my PF and they would charge me nothing if they failed. They did not take me up on the real offer and actually it would not have been very professional if they did. If someone like Steve P or one or two of the other guys who have been dealing with this for years and who I have come to know post they went to Dr. Sandell and were cured I would be on the next flight north. I know of nothing of Goose and Place or their PF history. This is not to say they have not been cured or helped but as you know your health history has a lot to do with the success of almost any treatment. In the begining they would not treat patients who had previous surgery with ESWT and when I was treated they made it clear that my chances for a cure were less than someone who did not have surgery. Goose and place may be 21 year old athletes who have had this problems less than a year. If that were true they would have a 90% chance of a cure using conventional everyday treatments according to medical statistics since 90% of all PF cases are cured by normal/standard protocol for PF. We just do not have the data to make a claim of any sort of TFM. Anyone can if they so desire head off to MN for treatment and since it is a massage type treatment there is little chance of getting worse and an unknown chance of getting better or cured and a sure thing it will cost a lot of money.

Re: Questions

john h on 7/30/04 at 19:36 (156618)

Anger is in the eye of he beholder Pauline. Actually I am happy today because my Cubs won. I have been angry a couple of times on the board but not about treatments. It was usally something stupid like politics or war. Do not mistake questioning a procedure for anger or even questioning motives of a poster. You have done that with Dr. Z more times than I can count with ESWT. Medical advances are made with critical questions that must be answered and should be answered. The one presenting a new procedure is bound to prove his case to the medical community and above all the patients who receive this treatment. If TFM is truly some breakthrough procedure then its time is bound to come but good sense tells me that there must be more than one person who can work the miracle cure of PF as TFM has been around many years.

Re: here's another of dr sandell's posts

Marty in SLC on 7/30/04 at 22:52 (156626)

I'm just guessing but I think John Mn is on the flamboyant side and many here are more analytical. I tried to keep that in mind.

Re: here's another of dr sandell's posts

Julie on 7/31/04 at 02:45 (156632)

Marty, many thanks: this is the post I was looking for and couldn't find. There were very few comments or responses to it at the time, the 'debate' having already been polarised by John from MN's over-enthusiasm, but perhaps now we can hear some thoughts from Dr Ed, Dr Z, Dr Wander, and anyone else who is knowledgeable about PF and massage.

I said at the time that it was informative and impressive and that it made perfect sense to me, and now that I have read it again I continue to think that it is an approach to PF that we should all be looking into - perhaps especially the professionals who treat PF. I wish Dr Sandell had not decided to back off because his knowledge would have been invaluable here, but I do understand why he didn't want to get involved. The sneer from 'Informer' with its implication that he was selling himself with the help of people he had planted, was probably the last straw.

I have pulled one important statement out of his post:

'There are far too many variables that can affect the patients' prognosis and an experienced practitioner should be able to recognize such variables. IT HAS TO BE UNDERSTOOD THAT WHAT WORKS FOR ONE PATIENT MAY NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER.' (My emphasis.)

Like John H, my problem, and I have said so several times, has been with John from MNs evangelism. He was greatly helped by Dr Sandell, and wanted to help other people, but his extravagant claims and somewhat confrontational tone have had the opposite effect from what he intended.

Re: Questions

Pauline on 7/31/04 at 09:31 (156646)

I'm certain if Elliott was able to post or around to post he'd tell us again what was in question.

Re: Questions

Pauline on 7/31/04 at 09:51 (156651)

I don't think anyone claimed that Dr. Sandell was 'the only person' able to perform TFM. I know he never made that claim in any of his posts.

I think what really troubles our resident Pods is the limelight taken away from them when a new doctor is praised on this site by others who have been helped through their treatment or product and the whittling of posters confidence in ESWT, their baby and income producer.

Sort of reminds me of an old western where the Sheriff decides who comes into town.

Re: Questions

Ed Davis, on 7/31/04 at 09:54 (156652)

He is ABLE to post but he must be willing to stand up to the scrutiny of those HE is criticizing if he is going to dispute information that is being presented.

Re: Questions

john h on 7/31/04 at 10:37 (156655)

I really do not think that Dr. Sandell's post bother our resident Pods at all. They, I suspect some of the claims put out there by John Fm Mn which are misleading and not factual seem to present John as a huckster and hurt the credibility of Dr.Sandell. I welcome Dr. Sandells post and would be an idiot not to want to know of what may have cured someone. I cannot count the products many of us have tried and reported on. I personally reported on my treatments of PF Surgery,TTS Surgery, Accupuncture, Reflexology. Theraputic massage, the current TFM massage I have been trying, 4 ESWT treatments, EMU oil, Wheat Germ Creame, Ibuprofen Cream. to many types of orthotics to mention, various stretching regimes. Dr. Sarno's book I read some years ago. shoe wear, a $300 light therapy device I purchased (sent it back). If there is anyone who wants something to work I am surely in that crowd. I made three trips to New Jersey and one to St Louis for the ESWT treatments. Dr Z presented us with facts on his success rate and we could see the comments of the many people he was treatnng with ESWT including a chart which was updated regularly by the patients. Dr Ed never talks much about his treatment with Sonoccur but has told me he has had many patients walk out of his office cured. I can go to the FDA or many European sites and look at pure scientific data on ESWT and have some sense of what my chances are it may help me. With TFM all I have is 3 posters who say they were cured or better and I can find no scientific data anywhere on the results of TFM. I am not recommending people not try TFM. In fact I am trying it and if Dr. Sandell was nearby I would try him. I have probably said all I can on this subject as frankly there is not much you can say but try it if you can afford it and if you think it will help you. I remain cautious and hope to see enough post from posters who try this to see enough positive results to convince me to spend the money and time to try Dr. Sandell. Clearly Dr. Sandell is not the only person in the U.S. who can perform TFM as taught to him in his school. If this is a real breakthrough treatment it will surely spread across the nation or further and we want have to travel thouands of miles to spend weeks and thousands of dollars for treatment. Pauline you really supprise me as you have always been one to ask critical and important questions about treatments appearing on this board. Do you have enough confidence in this treatment to recommend to someone they fly to Mn for two weeks and try it even if they have to borrow the money. Some people may look to your post and respect your post enough to follow your recommendation.

Re: Questions

Scott R on 7/31/04 at 11:05 (156661)

Pauline, i can think of a reason John h may be angry, if it's not for the obvious reason that John from mn is too sure of one treatment and too dismissal of the others: that 2nd possibility is that if john from mn is right, john h has to spend a lot of time looking into it and spend a lot money to go see Dr. S with a good chance of not being helped, if john h's past experience is to be a guide.

Dorothy, your post that started this thread accuses some patients of subconciously wanting their pain. I am sensitive when it comes to accusing patients in pain of not being 'all there', that they are somehow mentally self-responsible (i.e., guilty and to blame) for their condition. This is a cop-out doctors often use when they are unable to help a patient. It helps keep their ego high. Posts along this line of thought are close to violating the 'be nice' rule. Your post was written well to not be an overt attack and it's an interesting idea that doesn't hurt to cross our minds, but i wanted to raise a caution flag to let everyone see there's a boundary here that should be tread gently.

Re: Questions

Scott R on 7/31/04 at 11:19 (156662)

P.S. Dorothy's post was not bad, and there have been a lot of posts getting a little close to violating the be nice rule. Let's ease up a little now. If you disagree with John from mn's posts, you'll just have to post your criticisms in response without being too mean or blunt. His posts have covered enough area other than Dr S and his 'advertisements' for Dr. S often do not contain enough info to follow up on seeing Dr. S.

Re: Questions

Pauline on 8/01/04 at 10:29 (156699)

Ed, Dr. Sandell never criticized anyone in his posts. He spoke only of HIS treatment not any others on this site. The scrutiny was brought by others to his door.

To Scott R : John replied in his post he wasn't angry, but I find your insight into reading his mind interesting.

Re: Questions

Dr. Z on 8/01/04 at 12:21 (156703)

I don't recall anyone ever critizing Dr. Sandell.
John H has done a great job of questioning and exploring TFM and PF with hopes of educating everyone on this board.

Re: Questions

Ed Davis, DPM on 8/02/04 at 18:51 (156780)

I agree that 'the scrutiny was brought by others to his door.' He may not have been reading some of the posts about him. It would have been helpful if he had 'jumped in' at some point to get everyone back on track.

Re: Questions

Pauline on 8/02/04 at 22:35 (156799)

Dr. Ed,
I disagree. Dr. Sandell had no obligation to post anything. Just because one of his patients decided to tell heelspurs about Dr. Sandell put no obligation on him to post here or to 'jump' in as you say to get everyone back on track.

What track? He wasn't leading anyone anywhere. The man is a professional. We were informed about him by one of his patients. Anyone wishing to contact the man could do so. Anyone who didn't believe in his treatment could pass it by. Any doctor that really desired more information or observation could make a direct contact without posting it here. It was all really pretty simple.