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Treatment with Ossatron

Posted by Jack V. on 10/30/04 at 02:52 (162477)

BCBS for federal employees only covers one high dose treatment every six month. Is there a listing where this service is available in the New York City metropolitan area?

Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Dr. Z on 10/30/04 at 11:57 (162507)

If you go to our web site http://www.eswtusa.com we have two very highly qualified foot and ankle orthopedic surgeons who use the dornier. One is the consultant for the New York Rangers. http://www.eswtusa.com or e-mail Dr.Z at (email removed) and I will get you their information.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

vince on 10/30/04 at 13:39 (162524)

Go to http://www.unitedshockwave.com or call 888-835-0886 to find a doc. They have an extensive network of docs in the NY metro area, possibly more than 100 or more within 50 miles of NYC. Also you will have no fee to the company if your insurance does not cover the treatment. You can find a doc with a very reasonable fee. All their docs in the NY area use the high energy FDA approved treament with the Dornier. A good doc can block your foot so well that you will feel almost nothing during the treatment. My doc use 2 injections, a 27g needle, 5 cc of Lidocaine total and I just could barely could feel the pressure pulses. You may feel a little bit of electric shock towards the toes if the injection is placed properly. That was all the pain I felt and it lasted 30 seconds. You are going to read a lot of stuff here that's not real accurate- the skinny is that this works-probably 80%+, it's not painful, it doesn't cause any extra pain, it's safe, it's inexpensive with the right doc, you can find a convient location, it's quick, you possibly need only a day or so off from work if you are on your feet all day at work, if you have a desk job you can be right back to work, and if your insurance covers it you might just have a co-pay, co-insurance, or deductable. I can't think of a single reason for you not to have ESWT for PF if you fit the protocal.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Dr. Z on 10/30/04 at 14:03 (162527)

Hey Vince,
Everyone on this board knows who I am and that and I am an owner of Excellence Shockwave Therapy Group.
Now lets see who your are.? To know the gauge needle 27 very strange. I bet not one patient who ever had a local injection of any kind can remember or will ask their doctor the gauge needle.
Come one United I mean Vince. Lets be straight here.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

vince on 10/30/04 at 14:22 (162535)

My goodness- this is a suspicious chat board. Always an undercurrent of suspected clandestine purpose to posts. I know the size of the needle because I was kidding with the docs nurse as she filled the syringe and asked her why the neelde was so long. She told me that that was a needle used to fill the syringe, that it was a 20g and the one the doc would use was a thinner 27g. Would anyone else care to cross-examine me. You'll have to grant me immunity from prosecution first.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

vince on 10/30/04 at 14:47 (162537)

I forgot to identify myself. My name is Vincent, I live in the greater NY metro area, I am 48 yrs old, married, 3(twin girls 15 and a boy 17) kids, 3 brothers and a sister, work 60 hrs a week doing nothing very exciting, and I hike weekends when I can for recreation and exercise. I have no criminal record, or am I registered with any political party. I do not follow any professional sports teams and I watch any old tv reruns that I can find. I speak only english, despise the french, fell likewarm about germans, global warming and bass fishing on tv. I have worked since I am 14 and never went to college but did graduate high school. I drive a 8 yr old chevy lumina and my wife has a 4 yr old subaru. My wife works in a retail store part time and all 3 kids are in high school, have after school jobs, and I hope to be able to pay for college for all of them. I am 6'1' tall, I weigh 205, shoe size is 13. I never served in the military. Is there anything else you would like to know?? Oh yes one more thing- I did stay at a Holiday Inn once about a year ago with my wife and we had a king sized bed.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Ed Davis, DPM on 10/30/04 at 14:47 (162538)

vince:
You have made some very opinionated statements on the boards so it is only fair when Dr. Z asks you who you are. You certainly have the right to remain anonymous but want to know what the agenda is behind some of your opinions.
Ed

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

vince on 10/30/04 at 14:56 (162540)

My 'opinionated' statements are simply based on my experience with getting my PF treated with ESWT. It worked for me so therefore I have developed an opinion on the subejct. Dr. Davis, do you feel that you have an obligation to change my mind about my experiences or in some way prevent my relating them here? As far as being anonymous- what more about me would you like to know? Would my social security number, atm pin #, and a mug shot suffice? How about a retinal scan and a sample of my DNA. By the way. I have a DOT license, my last urine test was negative for banned substances and my BP is 125/70 and I can bench press 250#- how much do you weigh Dr. Davis?

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Dr. Z on 10/30/04 at 15:03 (162542)

Hey Vince,
It was just strange but you are very observant. I have no problem if you say you work for United Shockwave. By the way who was the doctor that did your treatment . That to me is most is very important to posters

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Ed Davis, DPM on 10/30/04 at 15:06 (162543)

vince:
You sound like a fairly well educated fellow. Why would you feel that because low energy did not work for you that it would not work for others, especially when tens of thousands of successful low energy treatments have been provided through the years in Canada and Europe. I am sure you can see that one person's experience is not necessarily representative of the population at large. Also you have made a very strong statement on the social board which simply innaccurate that 'homeopathy=naturopathy=quackery'. You realize that homeopathy nad naturopathy are two different things and realize that because something is not in mainstream US medicine, does not automatically render it as quackery. You basically insulted an entire profession, the Naturopathic profession. I am a podiatrist, not a Naturopath but realize that that profession has, potentially a lot to offer.
Ed

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Pauline on 10/30/04 at 15:08 (162544)

Well Vince you offered more information about yourself than the famous Mark Evans who was suppose to be a podiatrist on leave from the U.K. and was providing medical advice for our readers. Although no trace of him showed up in the U.K. health registry or in 6 different medical societies not one doc asked him to identify himself. Actually no doctor here ever questioned who he was or asked him to come clean so to speak as Dr.Z is asking of you. In fact they thought it was just fine and dandy that someone claiming to be a doctor should use an alias and provide medical help to readers. Funny about who is asked to provide proof of who they are and who isn't.

Had they asked their own medical societies if this was acceptable behavor on the part of a doctor, I think they would have received the same answer that I did from the 6 that I contacted to check for his licenses. NO!

If identification wasn't relevant with Mark I don't think it's relative with you or anyone else.

Thanks for the shoe size. I'm knitting socks:*

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Dr. Z on 10/30/04 at 15:14 (162546)

Mark Evans told both Dr. ED and myself who is and showed Dr. Z his identification. He never marketed any services like Vince has been doing with United Shockwave. That is the difference. Did you ever see Mark Evans give his web site, e-mail address sell a service, direct a patient to a service. Come on Pauline stop being so obtuse as they say in the movie
This is a quiz. Do you know the movie.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Pauline on 10/30/04 at 15:33 (162551)

Mark Evans told the public he was a Podiatrist working in the U.K. and was providing medical help to Scott's readers. No record of licensure could be found for him in the U.K. by any registering body. You told us he was using an alias name on this board.

That isn't ok with me and will never be ok with me nor your own medical societies. They will be the first to tell you that this is not acceptable behavor of a doctor who is providing medical help anywhere.

They don't lower their standards when it comes to this practice and they are the very first people to tell patients to check for licensure of their physicians.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

vince on 10/30/04 at 15:39 (162554)

I feel that any thing more detailed about my experiences with ESWT are priveleged medical info and will not be posted here. What if I post the doctors name here and next week my toes fall off- what would that do to his reputation?

As far as my statement re: homeopathy and naturopathy- I apologize if I insulted any providers or devotees but I just don't think that they are valid medical methods of treating illness or disease.
As far as my opinioon of low energy vs. high energy- it didn't work for me- it was a consistant failure over a period of time for my doc other patients- he swtiched to high energy- it helped me and he had a much greater success rate- anecdotal- yes, but I consider it valuable infomation and you might not- that's not a new phenomenon- that's what make a horserace

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Dr. Z on 10/30/04 at 16:52 (162560)

Come on Vince,
We refer and tell about our positive experiences with doctors all day long in life. Ok here is the the big direct one . Do work for United Shockwave.? I really don't care but I watch the no spin zone and this is how they would treat you

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

vince on 10/30/04 at 18:26 (162569)

I'll answer you but please first take that bright light out of my eyes and put away the rubber hose. NO I DO NOT WORK FOR UNITED SHOCKWAVE. I was a pf sufferer who had his pf problem solved by one quick, significantly painless, uncomplicated, economical, high energy treatment, administered by my podiatrist and assisted by a tech who worked for them after 3 low energy treatments failed to provide any relief. As an aside the three unsucessful low energy treatments I received were much more painful than the 2 small local injections I received prior to the successful and economical high energy treatment using the ultrasund guided Dornier EPOS.
Now can I make the one phone call I am allowed so I can arange for someone to post my bail bond.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Dr. Z on 10/30/04 at 19:16 (162576)

We don't allow phone calls, movies, or any TV until you admit that you are really OBL and trying to change the next ESWT treatment or insurance coverage.
By the way I am a BIG FAN of the Dornier Epos Ultra High energy. You can call me anytime at 1-856-229-2939 if you are in any ESWT trouble again.
I hope you find this funny I am sure your foot does

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Lori S. on 10/31/04 at 00:44 (162593)

......these boards and the heal pain book have been a wonderful place for me and many others. But I would like to point out that, one of the doctors that posts here posted an answer to someones questions. In that post from which ever doc it was, they themselves pointed out that a doc should never use a needle bigger than 27. So, it may just be that vince reads alot here. And really who cares. I for one had ESTW done with united shockwave, and knowing how much this procedure costs, and my insurance unwilling to pay for it, I searched for the closest(which makes it cheaper due to travel going 5 hours and only having to spend one night, compared to going three states away and several days in motels, food, etc.) doctor using whatever companys machine ( which just happened to be united shockwave for me) for the sole purpose of getting a treatment which I so dearly needed. I think for most people here its all about the money, which includes traveling, doc fees, machine fees,etc., I could care less which machine was used, as long as I was able to get the treatment. And at that, I could care less who got what money from whom, as long as I was able to try this treatment. I am tired of pain, I am tired of living everyday knowing if i do this or that, I will suffer unbearably for it.

There is alot of fighting here about what company, and who is screwing (pardon my word there) who over for that money. To us, the little guys here in pain, I think most of us could care less, as long as we can try to get some help. I commend everyone who posts here, because its all for the good of us suffering. This has been the one place I can come to, and complain, or look for hope, find a friend to listen, get advice ( lol, I think my family and friends are as sick of it as I am). I hope by speaking up in the middle of this, wont get me thrown out of here.

I possibly dont understand the problem with Mark Evans, or whoever it was. But if you sit back and think about it. Most of us here, dont care what machine , or who owns it, we just are seeking the treatment we decide to try, because nothing else has worked and for some (including me) insurance wont cover it.

Sorry,,, this went on and on, its been a long day, and a painful night. I love this site, and sometimes its hard to see so much arguing. I thank everyone who has posted here, because many things I have used, or tried are due to this site.
best wishes,
Lorinda

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

john on 10/31/04 at 07:04 (162605)

Lori,

Thank you for your comments. I hope that your pain continues to decrease.

The reason that I post is that I think ESWT should be covered by all insurance companies so it would not be necessary to travel 5 hours and pay out-of-pocket for the procedure. I beleive that United's policies work against insurance coverage. I also want to warn the readers that the experience with United would have been quite different if your insurance company covered the procedure. In that case, the bill would have been much higher than $500.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Ed Davis, DPM on 10/31/04 at 13:55 (162630)

Pauline:
Mark did identify himself to myself and Dr. Z and myself by email and he is the 'real thing.' He came here, largely, seeking information, so considering the circumstances, he needs to be given some latitude.
Ed

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Ed Davis, DPM on 10/31/04 at 14:09 (162632)

John:
United's goal is to try to gain a 'critical mass' of cured patients that will be able to open the closed doors of the third parties. While I can understand your concerns and the concerns of Dr. Z, I feel that United is doing two very beneficial things:
1)creating a population of cured patients who are ready to influence the third parties
2)getting thousands of people cured who otherwise would not have access to a cure
Item number 2 is what medicine is all about. United did not always use their current tactics which you disagree with . Their tactics originated as a response to third parties abdicating their responsibility to their insured to provide a needed, legitimate service.
Ed

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Dr. Z on 10/31/04 at 15:16 (162635)

Ed,

Here is another way United Could help with #2. They could have a sliding payment scale for patients that can't pay.
This is what the medical industry has been doing for years.
There is already a population of cured ESWT treated patients in the thousands over the past five years in the USA.
Here is a question that may answer the real motive behind this Free program. Is United in any state where there is no insurance coverage or where there has been lost of ESWT coverage.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Pauline on 10/31/04 at 16:39 (162641)

Dr. Ed,
You can cut him all the latitude you want, but 6 U.K. medical societies and the U.K. Health Ministry and Registry and even your own medical societies here in the states nor I agree with you. They don't cut latitude to doctors using an alias name especially one that is provideing medical information anywhere.

You say he came seeking information. It could have been collected via personal email or even handed to him because Dr. Z's last post indicated that Mark showed him a card so obviously people were together.

Every new post about this guy rings a different bell.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Pauline on 10/31/04 at 16:43 (162643)

Dr. Ed,
You can cut him all the latitude you want, but 6 U.K. medical societies and the U.K. Health Ministry and Registry and even your own medical societies here in the states nor I agree with you. They don't cut latitude to doctors using an alias name especially one that is providing medical information anywhere.

You say he came seeking information. That could have been collected via personal email or even handed to him because Dr. Z's last post indicated that Mark showed him a card so obviously people were together.

Every new post about this guy rings a different bell.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Dr. Z on 10/31/04 at 16:57 (162644)

Pauline,
The card thing was part of his personal e-mail to me. It was on a letter head type e-mail. This is the only web site that he uses his alias. I saw him post on another web site using his real name. This alias type approach is used on other podiatry web sites . Do I agree with it NO. It is a big deal? Only if it becomes common on this site would I start to worry about it. So I am going to have to AGREE with you. In order to prevent a pattern all doctors should identify themselves and all posters should be able to confirm if they have a liscensure

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

john on 10/31/04 at 17:19 (162646)

Dr Davis,

Dr Z. is exactly right. United is not in States that have no insurance coverage.

Additionally, a soundly conducted study with proper controls would open the closed doors of the third parties much better and faster than United's tactics.

In terms of access, we would all have been much better off if Healthtronics and Dornier had conducted proper studies in the first place. United's motivation is money. They do not care about the greater good!

You never really answered my question. Are you an investor in United? If so, have you made your original investment back?

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Pauline on 10/31/04 at 18:30 (162648)

Dr.Z,
I'm glad you agree. I think it's a dangerous situation if posters are allowed to identify themselves on this site as a doctor, respond to readers as such, but use an alias so that liscensure cannot be checked.

No medical society would go along with that as ethical practice.

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Dr. Z on 10/31/04 at 19:13 (162651)

John,
Question? What you would have wanted added to the Double blind, randonized, multi center studies that both Dornier and Healthronics used to get their FDA approval for plantar fasciitis

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

john on 10/31/04 at 20:32 (162654)

Nothing. I just would like to see a confirming study that duplicates the results. This would take care of the insurance company complaint that the studies were not independent of the manufacturers.

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Dorothy on 11/01/04 at 01:19 (162666)

Hear! Hear!

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Dr. Z on 11/01/04 at 09:09 (162675)

There is one by Dornier. They treated all of the patients in the FDA studies after 12 weeks that didn't have the original treatment. They were the placebo patients. After a one year follow-up of these patients I believe from my memory they were about 56 patients. The Roles/ Maudley scoring was 93% of these patients were reported either an excellent or very good pain resolution and increased ability to function.
Yes there should be more studies. It is very hard and expense to perform a study. I have the patients to do a study but to get outside help is tough. I am on the waiting list for a study with a local major university. No help from the company either. My goal is to write that is exactly like the FDA study and see if it can be duplicated.

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Pauline on 11/01/04 at 09:56 (162682)

Dr.Z,
Is Roles/Maudley is the scoring system where Elliott pointed out the fact that the Ossatron results were being scored in all four areas and Espos wasn't? I remember him bringing this issue to light over the information on your web site. Something that was not totally correct as it was being stated and that you finally did change.

He isn't here to defend these studies and figures anymore but I hope the 93% figure that you posted was the total score in all four areas that Elliott was defining for us if indeed Roles/Maudley was the study he was referring to.

Numbers taken out of context and quoted can make anything look good or bad on this site because most readers don't understand the part Roles/Maudley plays in ESWT. They haven't read nor do they wish to read with vigor all the studies that Elliott presented for us in an understanding fashion and as purely written as the authors entended them to be.

I think when percentages and figures of cures are being used Elliotts examination and explaination of the studies should be included so readers understand how the figures posted are actually being derived.

I miss the straightforwardness of his text when he posted, on all the studies, that he examined and reported for us. Others will probably disagree, but I think Elliott's honest reporting got him banned.

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Dr. Z on 11/01/04 at 10:53 (162688)

Pauline,
I don't think that Elliott was banned from heelspurs.com but I think if any one should he was the one. His accusation were outrageous and slanderous.
Here is my understanding with what he wanted changed. I COMPARED the R/M between the Dornier and the Ossatron. Elliott felt that since Healthronics used a different definition/scoring system then Dornier that there shouldn't be a comparison between the two studies. I didn't agree but we did make the change.
The 93% Roles Maudley that I quoted is the classic system that gives this definition. This number COMES from a published journal that had PEER reviewed staff.
Very Good- No pain , no restriction for movement and or activity
Good- Occasional pain with no restriction for movement and activity
Fair With pain during rest and after excertion or loading
Poor Daily activity limited by pain
Whether anyone agrees with this journal is ok I am just reporting the information.

The point of my conservation with John was about studies and insurance.
I agree that we do need additional confirmation of these studies

Re: Treatment with Ossatron

EleanorH on 11/01/04 at 11:17 (162689)

You say that FEP (Blue??)will cover one treatment every 6 months?? My podicatric surgeon who administered the treatment said he had been turned down repeatedly by FEP. When I called FEP they said each was considered on an individual basis. My cost was $1800. Any advice on successfully filing? Thanks

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Pauline on 11/01/04 at 12:30 (162699)

Dr.Z,
I think Elliott was pointing out the fact that two different scoring systems were being used when producing the percentages published in the Ossatron and Dornier studies. However when the figures were transfered to this site the comparism between the studies didn't transfer. One had to actually read the studies to see how they differed and that's what Elliott did and explained to us in easy to understand terms.

I think the point that he was trying to make is that when a comparison between the two machines is going to be made and is sighting Roles/Maudley scoring to make their point, one must share with the reader the fact that the Ossatron results or scores in their study were being based on it meeting four 'different' criteria on the Roles/Maudley chart, while the Dornier machine was using only two of the four criteria, to achieve their published figures.

In the scientific world and in the real world this makes a difference if one is saying they are comparing apples to apples equally if in fact they are posting results that didn't compare the two machines equally to begin with.

A journal can report a study anyway that it's accepted for publication, however, if the results from one study are going to be pitted against the results of the other all the criteria must be laid out for the reader to interpret and this is what Elliot basicly did for us.

It had nothng to do with anyone liking or disliking, agreeing or disagreeing with Dornier's published journal results. It was the conclusion that was being drawn based and the fact that readers were not being told that the scoring systems were quite different between the studies and therefore no real comparison could be made without taking this into consideration.

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Dr. Z on 11/01/04 at 12:44 (162700)

Pauline,
Actually I remember that Elliott pointed out that the Dornier inclusion criteria was more strict then the Ossatron.
My point is that the Roles/ Maudley is a scoring system which I have defined in my last poster and that is what I used when quoting the 93%
This has nothing to do with machine comparison just quoting 93%. Which as I stated before needs additonal confirmation with repeat studies with the same criteria.
You answered your own concerns by reviewing for yourself that Elliot and Dr. Z were talking about machine comparisons. My present post never once mentioned comparisons between the two machines. So your post has what
purpose.

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Pauline on 11/01/04 at 12:53 (162703)

To explain the 'other half of the story' because so often that figure is used to compare the effectiveness between the machines and because the reader doesn't have the entire study to read and evualate for themself when the figure pops into a post.

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/01/04 at 14:32 (162711)

John:

You made the statement, 'United is not in States that have no insurance coverage.' First of all, I know of no states that categorically have no insurance coverage of ESWT. Washington, my state, has minimal coverage of ESWt yet United is here, providing ESWT so it is unfair to state that they are just in in for the money.

You state that 'you nver really answered my question' pertaining to investments in United. I don't recall that you have ever asked me such a question. I lease a Sonorex Sonocur so, financially, my interest is in using that machine. I still support United because they are doung the right thing.
Beyond that, I will wait for you to give me a list of your investments and returns before I give you mine as I feel that your accusations are becoming quite innapropriate.
Ed

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/01/04 at 14:58 (162716)

Pauline:

You seem to have had no objection to a number of doctors posting queries here.
I think that if you were consistent in your treatment, I would have no problems. There is a big difference between a doctor coming here to ask questions and one coming here to give advice. I am all for threir identification in the latter. Mark, gave me plenty of inofrmation to go by and has communicated with me by email so I have no reason to doubt him being genuine. If he became a regular contributor, I would agree that he should identify himself. He probably is not; he is a fellow in transition with a bit of spare time on his hands who just was looking for a place to chat.

Just curious, what would you say to a person who came here anonymously, giving advice but not identifying their profession whatsoever? We have individuals who have given almost more advice than doctors on this board without identification --- what standard do we hold those people to?
Ed

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/01/04 at 15:02 (162718)

Pauliine:
Since you have performed investigations as stated would you kindly share the qualifications which you have found out with our readers about:
1)myself
2)Dr. Z
3)Dr. Sandell
4)Dr. Wander
Ed

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Pauline on 11/01/04 at 15:19 (162720)

Dr. Ed,
I think you need to check with your own medical societes, the licensing board in your state and the Federation of Podiatry Licensure and ask them what standard someone should be held to that presents himself as a practicing doctor, providing medical advice to the public while using an alias name.

I think you'd find they would be very interested in speaking to the person.

In response to your other post. What I found out is public information available to anyone interesting in looking for it.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/01/04 at 15:41 (162721)

Pauline:
The WAC (Washington Adminstrative Code) does not address that. I will only pursue this if I feel a doctor is making statements that are innapropriate, otherwise I do not feel compelled to take such action. If you feel strongly about this you could request that Scott make non-anonymity a requirement.
Regards,
Ed

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/01/04 at 15:45 (162722)

PS.
Dr. Norris, the VP and one of the principles in United, flew out to WA last Janurary when I met with him and Regence Blue Shield. He is a Vietnam Vet, a former trauma surgeon working in a MASH type unit and a very honorable man.
If you have questions of United you certainly can address it to him. I certainly don't feel that aspersions concerning his company are warrented based on what I know of him and his company.
Ed

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Pauline on 11/01/04 at 16:08 (162724)

There are already laws in place that address this so you need not pursue anything. There are people at licensing agencies interested in all and any doctors using alias names while providing medical information to the public.

If this were not an important issue to help protect the public surely the time and money didn't have to be spend by the AMA and this was back in 1999. I'm not the only person that feels strongly about checking credentials of persons dispensing medical advice. It's alread being done by others.

The Columbian
10-13-1999
NEW YORK (AP) Intel Corp. and the American Medical Association said Tuesday they are developing an online system to verify that Web users who dispense medical advice are indeed doctors.
Engineers designed the system to verify doctors' credentials and prevent pranksters from impersonating a physician.

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/01/04 at 16:21 (162725)

Pauline:
When you refer to 'web users that dispense medical advice,' you are using a blanket term so does that include non-physicians who dispense medical advise, physical therapists.... you can see where this is going. Again, I cannot speak for federal law but the WAC (Washington Administrative Code) does not address this.
Ed

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Dr. Z on 11/01/04 at 16:46 (162729)

(2) has fixation with heel pain and ESWT

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Dr. Z on 11/01/04 at 16:55 (162730)

But that study isn't a comparison of any machines. It is the study of 175 people who were involved in the Dornier PMA and what was evaluated after one year. There is no other story unless someone wanted to know what what the Ossatron study showed after one year and then we get into comparisons and this one of the reasons Elliott wrote his ESWT novel

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Pauline on 11/01/04 at 17:36 (162732)

I think the words that follow 'are indeed doctors' clarifies who they are referring to in their statement.

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

john on 11/01/04 at 19:57 (162741)

Dr Davis,

Forgive my inappropriate accusations. You speak very positively of United and I just wanted to know if you were an impartial user or whether you were an investor in United and used their system. I don't want to know about any of your other investments.

As far as I know, United is not in every State and the only factor appeared to be insurance coverage.

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/02/04 at 14:28 (162792)

john:

With virtually no insurance coverage in WA State, I have provided an example of United doing quite a bit of uncompensated work. I have met with Dr. Norris of United and have found him to be a very impressive individual, honest, caring and determined to get treatment to as many people in need as possible.

My financial interest is strongly with Sonorex as I am affiliated with them and lease a machine from them. The treatments have been very successful. When United entered WA State to offer shares I bought one share of stock largely as a token of support --- that 'investment' is very minor and is a tiny fraction of what I have invested in my equipment and maintainance lease with Sonorex.

John, if you have read my posts on this board throughout the years, I have taken the point of view that I support almost the entire effort in the ESWT community to get the word out, obtain approval from the medical community and finally, third parties. I have and will come to the defense of anyone in the ESWT community whom I feel has made a significant contribution, not just United. I support Sonorex with the same level of enthusiasm as United and offer support to Sunny Jacob of Pain Free clinics in Canada, David Lowy of the Sonorex Treatment Center in Vancouver, BC.

There was a point that I felt that the Ossatron people took the point of view that they needed to criticize competitors in order to fluorish. Their mistake was, in my opinion, relying on a treatment model that was too expensive for the current health care environment and should have rapidly adapted to those changes instead of trying to show that competing technologies may be inferior. That tactic, I think, actually set back their own company. It is my understanding that they are now working toward getting a permanent CPT code so they are doing something constructive for everyone. Hopefully, they will also reconsider their treatment model as I feel that it is changeable in a manner that it can be surgicenter or office based.
Ed

Re: to; Jack Re: Treatment with Ossatron

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/02/04 at 14:36 (162794)

Pauline:
The AMA is not a legislative body so they can make suggestions to and lobby legislators but do not have control over the actions of their memmbers. Keep in mind that the AMA represents MDs only, not DOs, DCs, DPMs and so forth. At one point AMA membership only constituted about 40% of MDs but may be more by now.
Ed

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Virginia C. on 11/06/04 at 10:30 (163091)

I have been following the posts here on ESWT for the last year or so. I work in the office of a podiatrist who has been offering ESWT for close to 3 years (Ossatron), contacting the insurance companies and speaking with the patients. All I can say is:
'Pauline, you go Girl!'
Dr. claims a 90% success rate with Ossatron. A closer guess by a non-investor would be success of 1 in 3. Success is a matter of opinion. Investors are not unbiased. Honest, trusting people have been intentionally or unintentionally misled as to the efficacy of the Ossatron and the cost of the procedure. Billing has been a nightmare. The office personel have always been very concerned about how much United Shockwave was going to stick the patient with, they have been through several policy changes. United Shockwave seemed very secretive from day one. They appeared to be unknowledgeable and inexperienced with insurance companies. They didn't know that eventually the insurance companies would find out about their billing deal? The first few patients have dropped off the face of the map, do not call, do not pay, offer no feedback.
Dr. seems unconcerned and forgetful about who they are. Wouldn't you think a 1 and 2 year follow up would be in order before a 90% success rate is claimed?
FYI- Wellmark BCBS of Iowa is now covering ESWT at $250 for the contracted physician.

Virginia

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Dr. Z on 11/06/04 at 12:04 (163095)

Virginia,
Thanks for the update. There is something confusing. Is your equipment provider United Shockwave and the equipment that they provide to your office or ASC the Ossatron. Not sure of what you mean by 'their billing deal.' I am sure this board would like aditional information about what you know about osstron,united shockwave. If appears that you are very involvement with the business end in your doctor's office and could give additional advice to posters looking for advice and how to get ocverage. By the way would you have ESWT done on yourself if you had PF?

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Pauline on 11/06/04 at 14:09 (163099)

Virginia,
Hope you meant to be complimentary. I'm going to take it that way. I get a lot of $%#$$# as you well know if you've been following this board.

Do you happen to know how many ESWT providers there are and who they are besides United??? Any way that you can tell us who are the largest providing groups?

Does your doctor do any long term follow up of patients himself, 6 months, 1 year down the road following treatment? Does he ever seemed surprised that the cure rate doesn't appear to be as high as predicted from ESWT?

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/06/04 at 15:22 (163102)

I do have to say that most patients who are cured with ESWT are not heard from as they seem to just want to move on with their lives. I recieved a phone call from an ESWT patient I have not seen in a year last week when he read in the local paper that a basketball star is down with PF and was curious as why the player did not get ESWT since it cured him (the patient).

Ossatron works but I beleive that all of the machines work. The Ossatron issue has been the price since it involves surgicenter, anesthesiologist, surgeon, Healthtronics -- bills from 4 entities. The United people are definitely not secretive and have a lot of experience with the Dornier unit as they are in 22 states. Norris, the VP, has co-authored an excellent paper with Bruce Werber, DPM, a former President of the American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons, documenting a very good success rate. One of the key elements of that paper was that a high percentage of those individuals cured would have opted for surgery if not for the availability of ESWT thus providing a much less expensive alternative (not to mention less complications and time loss fromm work).
Ed

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Dr. Z on 11/06/04 at 18:39 (163109)

ED,
Any idea when this paper will b published.? Does United use the ossatron in some states at one of the posters mentioned?

Re: I dont want to start a riot here,,,,,,,

Ed Davis,DPM on 11/07/04 at 13:02 (163158)

Dr. Z:
I beleieve that they primarily use Dornier but may have an Ossatron in their armemementarium...
You may need to contact them for more specifics.
Ed