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Still having problems

Posted by JADO H on 3/30/05 at 10:40 (172167)

Hello everyone - it has been awhile since I have visited the site.
I have basically given up hope that this pain will ever be fully relieved.
I have been struggling for about 2 years now. I am 26 years old and am not overweight. I have a desk job but I do stay active with aerobics etc. I have tried rest but honestly it did not help - it made me sad and stressed. I would rather hurt than be depressed and less confident in myself. About two weeks ago I really pushed my workout I figured I would regret it in the morning - funny thing is - my feet did not hurt one bit the next morning - it was unbelievable. However, they hurt again the next day. The pod I go to always asks what have you done - does it hurt during kickboxing, are you lifting too heavy, etc. I always tell him there is no pattern to my pain. As most of you know, it can hurt the worst after standing for long periods of time.

I think I am going to start going to a chiropractor that specializes in outer extremity injuries. Supposedly, he has helped many people with PF. I am a believer that your body needs to be in good alignment to prevent injuries. I am wondering if possibly I am off balance and that is causing some of my problems. I teach pilates so I do a lot of stretching and core muscle strengthening - I know it is a huge benefit to my health. I wish the pain would go away before summer. I have a huge love for gardening , I have 97 varieties of hostas. The garden is a lot of work - raking, bending, kneeling, squatting - all of which really stress out my feet. One thing I know that takes away the pain is a good Martini and backyard fire. Good luck everyone.

JADO

Re: Still having problems

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/30/05 at 21:26 (172231)

JADO:
Have you considered ESWT?
Ed

Re: Still having problems

JADO H on 3/31/05 at 08:17 (172251)

Well, from what I have it is hard to get insurance to cover the
cost of this treatment - is that true? My insurance company will
not cover orthodics - I doubt they would cover this. What do you think?
I have looked up the locations of the treatment facilities - the closest is about 2 hours away.

JADO

Re: Still having problems

Lori S on 4/05/05 at 00:25 (172614)

Jado...

My insurance didnt cover it either, but it is possible to get the treatment. Check out what people have to say about it here. I ended up paying $1000 for both feet, and it was the best thing in the world. I am human again, I can walk as much as I like and I am not in pain. I had my ESWT on 9/29/04 and afterwards I took it easy,, for the first 4 or so months. I am happy to say... I am recovered. I used to be able to only be on my feet maybe an hour a day and I was living on pain meds. I have my feet back and it was worth every penny. On rare occasion, if I am on them way too much, they will hurt a little at night, but by the next morning...... I am fine again. I spent three years of visits to my podiatrist, trying everything in the book(inserts-overthe counter and custom, physical therapy, taping, stretching, nsaids, at one point my pain was so bad right before my eswt, he wrapped my feet in unaboots every three days until my treatment) even my pod says I was the worst case hes had--- nothing we tried helped, in fact most of it made it worse. He suggested eswt(which he doesnt do, so I found someone who did), and we even tried things not normally tried.... it was the answer for me. Ask around here, or your foot doc.. he may know where you can get this done. Podiatrist suggested it, and I searched it until I found a way to get it done. $1000 is way less than I spent over the last three years on docs, inserts, meds, etc, and worth every penny.
Best wishes, hope you find an answer,
Lorinda

Re: Still having problems

CherylS on 4/05/05 at 08:37 (172628)

Lori - where did you find treatment for $1000? My insurance also doesn't cover it, but the price I was quoted was over $3,000! How/where did you get such a low price?

Re: Still having problems

Terri on 4/06/05 at 13:07 (172711)

I know what you mean JADO about getting depressed sitting around and resing a lot. This condition causes mental health problems I think. I don't know what is worse, the soreness and pain of PF or the sitting around, getting out of shape, missing out on friends and social activities. I honeslty would have never believed something so non medically serious could cause so many problems.

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

Jane M. on 4/06/05 at 23:12 (172740)

Finally I discovered someone who seems to have experienced the same intensity I have with PF.I even went all way to Emory University in Atlanta (I live in Tennessee) to have the Shock Wave Therapy. After the doc told me some of the 'dangers' such as a heart attack, stroke, as the result of the shock wave, I decided I'd have to think about it. I had already paid the $1,000, was on the table ready for the procedure and 'chickened out' after he said those things. I have never been back, still trying the same old, same old....orthotics, pain meds. etc. I have had this horrible condition for 6 years in both feet. I wear prescribed orthotics, use night splints...still to no avail. Sometimes I feel better than others. But have to really pace myself.Can you please elaborate about your recovery time and any other effects you may have had. Thanks so much, Jane

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

elliott on 4/07/05 at 08:40 (172744)

Jane M,

I am guessing the device was the Dornier since Emory was part of the Dornier FDA study. Is taht right? Did they tell you on what they were basing the dangers of heart attack, stroke, etc.? Or what were the odds were? Read the literature and you get the impression that any side efects are for the most part minimal and transient.

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

Dr. Z on 4/07/05 at 08:43 (172745)

Was that the ESWT treatment or the IV sedation / general anesthesia risks that were explained to you?

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

John H on 4/07/05 at 09:39 (172747)

Jane: Everyone has to make their own decisions on such issues. If one carefully reads he warning labels on almost any medication including over the counter you might be tempted not to take them. In these days of lawsuits manufacturers, hospitals and Doctors must warn of anything that is possible even of it is only .0005%. We take a risk when we walk out the door each day, I am not suggesting you did the wrong thing but we are always faced with reward vs risk and only you know the risk you will accept for the pain you suffer.

I have had 4 ESWT treatments on each foot. A total of 8. One of our posters had 11 treatments on each foot and was finally cured after many years. On one of my treatments with Dr. Z using the now defunct Orby which was a very powerful machine. I did not even have an ankle block. Dr. Z normally and I assume now always gives ankle blocks but there was no FDA protocol for the Orby at the time. After the first ten shock waves my foot became numb and from that point on I felt no more than I did when I had an ankle block. I had both feet done this way. Unfortunately the FDA set the protocol for the Ossatron using anaethesia. I think most Doctors would now consider this overkill and does nothing but increase risk and cost. I have never seen anyone on this board post who had ESWT that they experienced in lasting side effects. I would guess that in Europe and the rest of the world they have done tens of thousands of these procedures. I have had ESWT with two different machines but have not tried the Ossatron. I would have it done tomorrow if I could get it done for $1000. It cost around $5000 in my city. After my ESWT I immediately climbed in my car and drove 100 miles to Washington/Baltimore Airport. Flew to St Louis and walked around the airport for a couple of hours and then flew to Little Rock. I had no residual pain what so ever. If you have an ankle block the numbness will wear off in a couple of hours but even after that there was zero pain from the treatment. The numbers I typically read for the success of ESWT are around 75%. Choosing between that and surgery is a no brainer for me. After you try all the other options which you seem to be trying it is decision time. I would guess between Dr. Z and Dr Ed who are on this board they have performed more than a thousand ESWT treatments. Many of the medical journals I read indicate one should try ESWT before ever considering surgery. ESWT is used widely to treat many other conditions including removing kidney stones (ESWL). This does pose much more risk than ESWT but when I had a kidney stone it was either die from pain, open surgery or a quick treatment of ESWL and walking out of the hospital pain free in a few hours. I am not sure what Dr Z and Dr Ed are prescribing for recovery but last I heard was just take it easy for a couple of weeks. You do not need crutches, there is no pain and I resumed my normal activites immediately. Probably should have taken it a little slower.

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

Ralph on 4/07/05 at 11:27 (172754)

John,
You should contact Dr. Gordon in Toronto. You know the same guy that did the first 8 from this site including Scott. I think they quoted me
about $1500.

That's pretty close to the figure you're looking for. A flight and one night stay if you had to stay is less than $5000. You could probably fly in and fly out the same day.

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

elliott on 4/07/05 at 13:01 (172764)

John H, you're finally mellowing. In the old days you were of the opinion that it was worth paying virtually anything to give ESWT a chance of ridding oneself of PF. Now you are consciously making a rational decision based on your own circumstances, and taking the cost, chances of success, etc., into account. Congratulations!

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/07/05 at 13:21 (172768)

John H is just telling you his experience. He has always been very mellow. It funny how two people can read a post differently. If you ever met John H you would know that is very mellow, smart and very rational. I read from this post that he would consider ESWT before foot surgery . Smart, rational and mellow. I wouldn't try the osatron for any amount of money unless someone could give me the why do this. or why it is going to help me when others didn't .

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

elliott on 4/07/05 at 13:28 (172772)

Dr. Z, you're claiming John H is both rational and irrational simultaneously. You state he is rational, yet in the very next sentence, you say you wouldn't try the Ossatron for any amount of money unless someone could give you a reason why it's going to help when others didn't, and yet for $1000, John H is willing to do just that. :-)

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/07/05 at 14:34 (172778)

Elliott,
E-mail is very difficult to make a judgement. I have met him and if you had met him you might agree with his judgement. I do understand and know why he talks about trying the ossatron for a grand. If I was in his boot which I am not I might do this.

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

Sharon B. on 4/07/05 at 20:01 (172807)

Ossatron helped my husband, and is continuing to. He had it 9 weeks ago (both feet) and has seen some improvement. He was also told he had a very very severe case so we are not expecting a miracle or an overnight cure.

Jane, my husband had the Ossatron procedure in Tennessee. There are many doctors around that do ESWT in this state, there may even be some that use the Dornier, but none that I know of. Our insurance didn't cover it, and it was more than $1000. But even with the little pain reduction my husband has felt so far, we feel it was worth it.

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

John H on 4/08/05 at 09:09 (172824)

John H will still do an Ossatron treatment for $1000 any time any day. One of our Canadian posters had ESWT 11 times using all three machines. He indicated he was cured last year but did not know if it was any one machine or just the total effect of all the machines. I had a discussion with the Canadian Doctor who did Scott's and the original Ossatron group that went to Canada for treatment. He used both the Ossatron and one of the other machines. At that time he told me he would definitely use the Ossatron on my foot which had surgery. Rational or irrrational I know how PF has effected my life and I probably am willing to accept a lot more risk than most. In any event I do not see the Ossatron a big risk in the big scheme of things. Flying over North Vietnam was a big risk. The Ossatron is a piece of cake. Do I think the Ossatron will cure me or make me better? Probably less than a 50% chance but I want know unless I try it. I do not think the Ossatron is better than the other ESWT machines. It is just one I have not tried. Maybe I would get lucky. Maybe not. I would also consider trying the series of low power ESWT treatments such as the Sonnocur but alas there are no machines in my gerneral area. The cost of these treatments are reasonable. The one risk I have not been willing to accept is a plantar release but if I were in a wheelchair as some on this board have been I might reconsider that.

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

John H on 4/08/05 at 09:24 (172825)

Thank you Elliott. Every thing we do in life for the most part has a cost of some sort and we have to measure cost vs benefit. I would like to drive a new Porsche but alas I am not willing to pony up the $$$$. Depending on the pain we are in and how our lives are effected will effect what lengths we will go to in eliminating our problem. If I knew 100% that a particular treatment would cure my PF I would mortgage my home to pay for it. We see every day rational people seeking unconventional treatments for cancer that most of us would think is irrational. I have purchased some really goofy products in the last 8 years to treat PF. The rational part of my brain says you are an idiot John but I just had to try that Emui Oil.

Elliott I do not know the status of your problem. You know all about mine. I am more or less an open book. What pain level are you experiencing and how does PF effect your life. What treatments have you tried and plan on trying. Where do you live? What is your educational background? Are you loveable? Do you like cats or dogs? What is your favorite book and favorite movie? What did you major in at school? Time to get to know Elliottt? Would I enjoy a beer with you in a neighborhood pub?

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

John H on 4/08/05 at 09:34 (172828)

Ralph I have talked to Dr Gordon by phone on two occasions a couple of years ago. He spent about 30 minutes on the phone with me and was very knowlegable and free with his time. One of my feet had surgery (No Pf release) and he said he would definitely use the Ossatron on that foot. Considering time lost from my work, airfare,hotel,etc it might make more sense to use the local machine. I am going to talk to the local Ossatron Doctor again. Maybe they have come down on their price since 2 years ago when they first got it. Dr. Gordon uses various machines and is not married to any one in particular but did say if you had surgery he felt the Ossatron would be a better choice. I am still amazed that some are reporting an Ossatron treatment for $1000. How can this possible cover the cost of a surgical setting in a hospital? Perhaps there insurance is picking up all cost except the Ossatron treatment?

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

elliott on 4/08/05 at 11:08 (172832)

John h, when the patient himself can't pin down what made him better after 11 treatments spanning years, rather than attribute the cure definitively to ESWT (be it one or the other machine or the cumulative effects of them), I'd at least keep open the possibility that he healed simply through the passage of time and not from ESWT at all. Regardless, a search on his name reveals that Mohez himself stated unequivocably and in srong terms that it was specifically the Ossatron, and not the Dornier:

Dornier vs Ossatron
Posted by Mohez on 5/11/03 at 21:07
I have had both, my five Dornier treatments on each foot, 1 week apart did very little. My 3 Ossatrons ( on each foot ), months apart did wonders. In a nutshell, Ossatron worked for me and the Dornier did not.

Mohez

Re: Ossatron vc Dornier Device View Thread
Posted by Mohez on 1/28/04 at 16:37

Chris

I have had both machines used on my pf and the Dornier treatments did nothing. The Ossatrons helped a lot ( 2 treatments on each foot ). I have also been thru just about every other type of treatment and can say that I am 85% cured. Do a search on my name and you will see my history.

MK

Based on his experience, you may be rational indeed for considering the Ossatron.

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

John H on 4/08/05 at 11:26 (172836)

I would not disagree with that assessment Elliott. Scientifically you could not prove it one way or the other. Mohez did not indicate if he improved somewhat after each treatment or just how this went down. I am guessing that after an Ossatron treatment Mohez must have received some significant improvement and ultimate cure and he attributes it to ESWT and the Ossatron. I would think if you are going to heal over time it would not be a sudden thing but a gradual improvement over many months. I had a few email with Mohez and I never got that impression and it appeared to me that his improvement/cure came quickly following ESWT. My speculation would be ESWT would have more to do with it than time. Mohez did stay after it and never gave up on ESWT which might indicate he was receiving some improvement with each treatment. Either that or he is a real bulldog. There are many of us who have dealt with this 10 years or more and time has done nothing for us. I did receive some benefit from both the Orby and Dornier treatments but it did not last. Could be that I am a lousy patient and refuse to give my feet total rest and in particular after the treatments. Since the beam of the ESWT machines is very narrow it could be that Mohez finally had someone hit the right spot. I do not remember but I think the Ossatron may have a wider beam than the other machines? Is that right or wrong Dr. Z.
As I recall the Ossatron protocol in Canada calls for an ankle block rather than going to a hospital??? With the lower cost many people can go for serveral Ossatron treatments. In the USA you would need some major dollars to go for the multiple Ossatron treatments.

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

Dr. Z on 4/08/05 at 15:36 (172845)

John H
The width of the ossatron ESWT is 5-6 mm/ Dornier 2.9mm but able to precisely move the bean under ultrasound guildance. I once was told by the Orbie inventor that failure had to do with missing the epicenter of pain I am in some agreement but not 100% agreement.
There are so many factors that go with Plantar fasciosis.

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?

Dr. Z on 4/08/05 at 15:45 (172847)

No elliott,
In a nut shell low energy with the dornier didn't work and HIGH energy with the ossatron did. The Protocol is just as important as the machine.

Re: Is Shock Wave Therapy successful?/ To Jane M.

Terri on 4/08/05 at 18:07 (172857)

It sounds like have a similar experience. Even though the ESTW didn't work for me I would still recommend it. It's worth a try. I guess some people just don't get cured of PF and I just think of all the things that could be worse. No doctor around here - and I even went to Duke Medical Center - could figure out why my foot hurt so much. I was a mystery to them. I saw the head or orthopeadics and he didn't know what to tell me except to try biofeedback for pain or maybe it was Fibromialga even though I have none of the symptoms of that.

Re: Still having problems

Kitty M on 11/29/05 at 19:09 (188452)

Where did you go to get the treatment? I had my right heel done (with an ossatron machine.. is that what they used on you?) as part of a heel pain study.. it was a MIRACLE cure. But now I am experiencing extreme pain in the other heel and the treatment in my area will now cost me $4,500 since the study is over. I would really appreciate any specific information that you have!

Re: Still having problems

John H on 11/30/05 at 10:27 (188491)

Kitty: If ESWT would cure my PF I would consider it an extreme bargain to have it cured for $5000.
I passed the $5000 mark in things to cure PF 8 or 9 years ago. Counting the ESWT,Surgery, every device you can mention, many Doctors, many pairs of custom orthotics, etc I would guess I have spent between $15,000 and $20,000 over 10 years and still counting.